What If...?

[ScottyB]

I have always been a big history buff, and I would often speculate on how things might have turned out if certain historical events had been altered; such as...what if JFK had survived his assassination? What if John Lennon was never murdered? Just to name a couple examples.
I thought it might be interesting to know of everyone's thoughts or ideas about the Carpenters if Karen was still living today. What do you think the path of their career would have taken them?

 

[kprather]

I think a similar discussion started to brew here not too long ago, and I thought it was interesting.

It was posited that the album we came to know as "Time" would have been released around 1984 (Wouldn't that be something, Karen's vocals on several of those songs?) Somebody suggested that Karen would have put her foot down sometime around 1985 and demanded her solo album be released. Who knows what sort of response it would have gotten in 1985, but if it brought in close to Horizon numbers, that would have been a victory.

She likely would have wrote a book about her battle with Anorexia and done a book tour. Chances are her Anorexia would have left her infertile, so upon meeting Mr. Right, she would adopt a child.

 

[ScottyB]

Myself, I believe, that Karen wished to evolve. I purely base this on her solo album. It was clear to me that she would have wanted to take her music into a more modern (for the times) direction, much like her friend, Olivia Newton-John, had taken. Don't get me wrong, their sound was still great, but it wouldn't have carried them through the 80's. Richard's lush string arrangements were not going to fit in well with what was starting to happen in the early 80's. I believe that they would have had greater success with more up-tempo songs. And they may have found great success had they utilized Tony Peluso more. Power ballads were starting to make their biggest popularity at this time, and it's a shame that they didn't capitalize on this, seeing that the Carpenters (Goodbye To Love) were pretty much the inventor of the power ballad. This was also the dawn of the video age. Well produced videos may have carried them besides the mediocre "scrubs" from the Made In America album.

 

[moog]

Had she gotten healthier, Karen might've been able to have a child, as her period did come back (I'd say TMI, but it was in the Coleman book), and besides, Cherry O'Neill was able to after her anorexia. I'd like to think she would've been able to divorce Tom, meet her real Mr. Right, and have a family like she wanted to. Maybe she would've been able to stand up for herself and do things on her own like the solo album, yet also do things with Richard and be part of that that '70s-artists-comebacks in the mid-80s. She also had wanted to get into acting, and since TV movies were big then, I can picture her doing some of those.

 

[Mike Blakesley]

Given that artists making major comebacks after their initial "peak" are extremely rare, and given the direction the music business has taken the past couple of decades, I doubt the Carpenters would have had much more chart success even if Karen had lived. Fans can dream all they want, but their style of music had run its course even before she died. I think it's possible they would have eventually done a full-blown country album, since they dabbled in that field quite a bit and several other pop artists went that route.

 

[Guitarmutt]

What if, is so tough! What if she'd stayed on the drummers' course? Behind the kit. She was great and worked at it behind the scenes , obvious in MMM's drumming solo. Drummer; singer; entertainer, whore. Give her your money, she gives you what you want! Even 30 years after she's dead? When is enough, enough?

 

[newvillefan]

Fans can dream all they want, but their style of music had run its course even before she died.

I would definitely agree with that. Their peak was 1970-1975, which is a respectable run for any artist. Richard made the mistake of flogging the same dead horse year after year and the public simply outgrew them. I think their decline in commercial success and popularity frustrated them more than anyone and they would probably have emded up undertaking anniversary tours as well as releasing the odd album as the label saw fit from time to time.

Artists like Barry Manilow are in that same strange category where the album seems to promote sell out tours, rather than the other way round.

 

[Toolman]

Midway through recording their followup to MIA, Richard and Karen mutually recognize that they need a new direction. Richard has been very impressed by the success of Ronstadt's "What's New" and is strongly inclined to produce a standards album with Karen. Neither, however, wants to be seen as copying Linda. Recalling the favorable reaction to his reinvention of "Ticket to Ride," Richard suggests recording an album of contemporary Top 40 hits rearranged as big band songs. Years before the Puppini Sisters, the concept has strong, fresh novelty appeal; the album and subsequent tour both do well. The tour's success is tarnished only slightly when Karen and Richard are forced to have John Davidson arrested for stalking. "He followed us everywhere," Karen is quoted as saying. "We hated to do it, but it was just getting creepy."

 

[70sFan]

I bet we would have seen an album of standards and most certainly a duets album, maybe like Streisand's Partners (stellar performances). Also, maybe an Ella or Como songbook album, like Bette's Peggy Lee and Rosemary Clooney. I agree that it was time for her to solo and yes act. Olivia did it, Helen did it. And I am glad they did! I also believe there would be a second coming when finding the right producers. I would have loved to see her with her own family. I love watching her with the children's choir during Live in Japan.

Wow, this would have all been so nice.

 

[kprather]

The tour's success is tarnished only slightly when Karen and Richard are forced to have John Davidson arrested for stalking. "He followed us everywhere," Karen is quoted as saying. "We hated to do it, but it was just getting creepy."

Now see, I had John and Karen getting back together and getting married.

 

[ScottyB]

Given that artists making major comebacks after their initial "peak" are extremely rare, and given the direction the music business has taken the past couple of decades, I doubt the Carpenters would have had much more chart success even if Karen had lived. Fans can dream all they want, but their style of music had run its course even before she died. I think it's possible they would have eventually done a full-blown country album, since they dabbled in that field quite a bit and several other pop artists went that route.

Now, you see, I disagree about their chance of a comeback to be doubtful. I still believe that had they (Richard, especially) had conformed to the changing direction that the music industry was taking, they still could have had a successful re-emergence. Karen had such a dynamic voice that she could have blended in quite well with superstars of the early to mid 80's such as Sheena Easton, Kim Carnes, etc. Many of her contemporaries were still producing big hits during this period, like Olivia Newton-John, Barbra Streisand, Cher, Donna Summer...just to name a few. The difference between these artists and the Carpenters is that they adapted to the changing atmosphere, whereas the Carpenters remained stuck in that (excuse me for this adjective) stale format. I do believe that they (especially Richard and A & M execs) should have taken a lesson from Karen's solo project and saw that this was Karen's way of saying "There needs to be a change."

 

[ScottyB]

In this interview from Good Morning America, Richard states that their style of music will never go out of style.
That may be so, but it would never again be as popular.

 

[ScottyB]

I gathered a list of 5 number one hits that were popular between 1982 and 1986 that I believe would have been perfect "vehicles" for Karen's voice:

1. Up Where We Belong (original Jennifer Warnes with Joe Cocker)
2. Baby, Come To Me (original Patti Austin with James Ingram)
3. Saving All My Love For You (original Whitney Houston)
4. Take My Breath Away (original Berlin)
5. True Colors (original Cyndi Lauper)

I have imagined her voice singing every one of these songs.

And let us not forget, that this was the era of the movie soundtrack, when a tremendous amount of radio hits were from movies. I'm sure the Carpenters could have made an appearance or two on a soundtrack album.

 

[newvillefan]

In this interview from Good Morning America, Richard states that their style of music will never go out of style.
That may be so, but it would never again be as popular.

Where I think Richard went wrong in the later stages of their career was to record too many schmaltzy, forgettable songs. We only got VOTH because Karen passed away and much of the material on it was average at best. They started a nice transition in style with the Passage album that could have gained some momentum but then retreated straight back into their shells with MIA.

 

[ScottyB]

Listening to the Singles Collection, I was reacquainted with the instrumental "Heather" and it got me thinking: could this song have been a potential hit, even though it is an instrumental. Listening to it, I noticed that is has a similar structure to the song Nadia's Theme, which was a big hit for Barry DeVorzon only a couple of years later.

 

[Made In America]

Now, you see, I disagree about their chance of a comeback to be doubtful. I still believe that had they (Richard, especially) had conformed to the changing direction that the music industry was taking, they still could have had a successful re-emergence. Karen had such a dynamic voice that she could have blended in quite well with superstars of the early to mid 80's such as Sheena Easton, Kim Carnes, etc. Many of her contemporaries were still producing big hits during this period, like Olivia Newton-John, Barbra Streisand, Cher, Donna Summer...just to name a few. The difference between these artists and the Carpenters is that they adapted to the changing atmosphere, whereas the Carpenters remained stuck in that (excuse me for this adjective) stale format. I do believe that they (especially Richard and A & M execs) should have taken a lesson from Karen's solo project and saw that this was Karen's way of saying "There needs to be a change."

Changing direction that the music industry was taking? Punk? The second British invasion? Youth? How could the Carpenters fit? Sheena Easton had youth. Kim Carnes stopped producing major hits after 1981, just the same as the Carpenters. The contemporaries you mention: Barbra Streisand relied on Barry Gibb for her success in 1980 & 1981. After that she produced the same type ballads as the Carpenters with the same type of success. Olivia was an actress with an image riding high from "Grease" and her continued film work kept her going until 1983. Then even she stalled out too. Cher a contemporary? The foul mouth and raunchiness was not Karen at all. Donna Summer a contemporary? She was a soul singer. Even she stalled out after 1983.

The Carpenters had almost no chance of ever reaching the top 20 again after "Touch Me When We're Dancing". They were actually fortunate to get that last hit before AC artists of the 70's were wiped off the upper areas of the charts after 1981. Karen and Richard probably would have eventually played Vegas and continued to produce solid AC records like Barry Manilow did into the 80's. Some touring. Perhaps a torch song album or two. But never a big hit again. They were in the sunset of their popular years.

 

[Made In America]

I gathered a list of 5 number one hits that were popular between 1982 and 1986 that I believe would have been perfect "vehicles" for Karen's voice:

1. Up Where We Belong (original Jennifer Warnes with Joe Cocker)
2. Baby, Come To Me (original Patti Austin with James Ingram)
3. Saving All My Love For You (original Whitney Houston)
4. Take My Breath Away (original Berlin)
5. True Colors (original Cyndi Lauper)

I have imagined her voice singing every one of these songs.

And let us not forget, that this was the era of the movie soundtrack, when a tremendous amount of radio hits were from movies. I'm sure the Carpenters could have made an appearance or two on a soundtrack album.

1. The huge movie is the only reason that song was a hit anyway. In other words, lucky for Jennifer Warnes as it never would have been offered to Karen & Richard. Two men and one woman on stage performing this song?
2. Soul music.
3. Soul music.
4. Another huge movie and a woman who sang it who had youth and multi-colored hair. In other words, it would have never been offered to Karen.
5. Another woman who appealed to youth with bizarre hair, bizarre clothes, and bizarre attitude.

 

[Harry]

Listening to the Singles Collection, I was reacquainted with the instrumental "Heather" and it got me thinking: could this song have been a potential hit, even though it is an instrumental. Listening to it, I noticed that is has a similar structure to the song Nadia's Theme, which was a big hit for Barry DeVorzon only a couple of years later.

"Nadia's Theme" was one of those strokes of luck that can happen to a song. Everyone was caught up in the Olympics that year with the performances of Nadia Comaneci of Romania as a gymnast. ABC-TV, carrying the Olympics that year, put together a video montage using the song as it existed as "Cotton's Dream" from the BLESS THE BEASTS AND CHILDREN soundtrack. When radio started getting requests to play it, A&M responded with the single and later album that both climbed the charts.

"Heather" on the other hand, had already BEEN the backing for Geritol commercials, so no-one was eager to bring that one up again. It wasn't going to "catch fire" like "Nadia's Theme" did. It WOULD have been a perfect addition to the NADIA'S THEME album that A&M put together.

 

[CraigGA]

These questions always make me think of this thread:
Paul Grein "Goldmine" article, 1991.
Paul writes eloquently as a fan of both Karen and Richard as a team and as individual artists. Go back and reread this article. I just did a search on it and it immediately came up.

 

[Murray]

"Nadia's Theme" was one of those strokes of luck that can happen to a song. Everyone was caught up in the Olympics that year with the performances of Nadia Comaneci of Romania as a gymnast. ABC-TV, carrying the Olympics that year, put together a video montage using the song as it existed as "Cotton's Dream" from the BLESS THE BEASTS AND CHILDREN soundtrack. When radio started getting requests to play it, A&M responded with the single and later album that both climbed the charts.

The song was also being used as the opening/closing theme of the soap opera "The Young and the Restless", so viewers of that program would have already been familiar with it, even before the ABC montage introduced it to the massive Olympic audience.

 

[Harry]

Correct. My point was that "Heather" or "Autumn Reverie" already had identification with a Geritol commercial. No radio programmer was going to find that appealing to play on the air had it been released as a single. But a TV Theme? That happened often - and with its connection to the Olymipcs, "Cotton's Dream" became a big hit as "Nadia's Theme."

 

[CraigGA]

Correct. My point was that "Heather" or "Autumn Reverie" already had identification with a Geritol commercial. No radio programmer was going to find that appealing to play on the air had it been released as a single. But a TV Theme? That happened often - and with its connection to the Olymipcs, "Cotton's Dream" became a big hit as "Nadia's Theme."

I feel the same and even sometimes have a hard time listening to it myself, but I really like the last minute of it. Bless The Beasts and Children had some nice music and it touched into a timeless spectrum with Nadia's Theme or Cotton's dream. I sometimes think the movie could be redone with a team of skillfull writers.

 

[wideawakeat4am]

These are always quite hard things to think about, but most threads tend to go in the direction that Karen would have eventually found happiness had she survived to see the 5th February 1983.

It could well have been the wake up call Karen so badly needed and I like to think that she would've taken some time to fully recover away from everything. She needed her 'rocks' like Frenda and Itchie around her, but I think she badly needed to get away. I think she would have released the solo album anyway, which may or may not have been a success, but it would have just been something she needed to do.

I'd like to think the she would have found personal happiness regardless of what happened professionally and she could've used her battle with anorexia to help others.

 

[JayJayVA]

WHAT IF .....

Richard had died instead of Karen . What direction would her career have taken? Would there be as much interest in Richard after his death today as there is of Karen?

 

[Jeff]

WHAT IF .....

Richard had died instead of Karen . What direction would her career have taken? Would there be as much interest in Richard after his death today as there is of Karen?

no