I both follow and post (often) at a site for radio pros and fans. One of their superstars is apparently a top radio programming consultant. He says the Carpenters are a huge liability to any stations that play them, and that they cause instant tune-out among most listeners. He also advises that oldies stations in general dump all 70's music from their programming.
Radio expert on Carpenters
- Thread starter JeffM
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Joeyesterday
Well-Known Member
How can he be a "top" radio programmer and propose such rubbish? Probably in his 30's. Modern radio makes my ears bleed anyway.
GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
'the Dove' has Carpenters routinely played,
Arbitron Ratings Tampa:
Market
#18 Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater
12+ Population: 2,501,200
Station:
WDUV-FM
(9/2014) 12.6
(1021014)12.9
(11/2014)13.2
(12/2014)13.6 Soft AC
Source:
http://ratings.radio-online.com/cgi-bin/rol.exe/arb087
Arbitron Ratings Tampa:
Market
#18 Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater
12+ Population: 2,501,200
Station:
WDUV-FM
(9/2014) 12.6
(1021014)12.9
(11/2014)13.2
(12/2014)13.6 Soft AC
Source:
http://ratings.radio-online.com/cgi-bin/rol.exe/arb087
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
He's obviously never listened to BBC Radio 2 then.
GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
WDUV, not only #1 in Tampa but in Top Ten of the format in the entire United States.
One observer noted:
WDUV...why is it always top-rated?
There are two explanations that people will typically use for WDUV's consistent #1 spot in ratings:
1) They play good music
2) Tampa's population is so "old" that WDUV's music is what's most popular there
I think it's definitely a combination of the two; however, I personally feel that the "good music" factor is MUCH more valid than the "old people" factor. Sure, Tampa's population is about 30% over 55, which definitely represents an "old" population. BUT...you have to remember that pretty much any city today has at least 20% of its population over 55. Therefore, I just don't believe that this small demographic difference is enough to turn a supposedly "dead" format into a ratings-topper. Yeah, "the extra 10% of 55+ residents in Tampa are what make WDUV the most listened to station; without this extra 10%, this format would totally flop in any other market". With all due respect, I think that theory is plain baloney.
MY GUESS is that WDUV's music draws listeners of all ages based on its universal appeal. The music has catchy tunes, it has plenty of instruments besides electronic percussion or ear-splitting horns/guitars, and it just "flows"...sadly, these characteristics are generally missing on the radio today. Sure, most young people won't admit to liking WDUV's music, because it is pretty much the most "uncool" music around today. But this does not mean that they don't secretly enjoy the music, and listen to it in the car when no one else is around. As a 27 year old male (bet you didn't see that one coming
), I think WDUV's format is probably my favorite radio format of all time...yet I never divulge this to anyone except my wife, parents, etc...in fear of being ridiculed. Now I'm not saying that everyone my age loves to listen Neil Diamond or the Carpenters on a daily basis, but I do believe that a significant percentage of WDUV's audience is in fact YOUNGER people."
One observer noted:
WDUV...why is it always top-rated?
There are two explanations that people will typically use for WDUV's consistent #1 spot in ratings:
1) They play good music
2) Tampa's population is so "old" that WDUV's music is what's most popular there
I think it's definitely a combination of the two; however, I personally feel that the "good music" factor is MUCH more valid than the "old people" factor. Sure, Tampa's population is about 30% over 55, which definitely represents an "old" population. BUT...you have to remember that pretty much any city today has at least 20% of its population over 55. Therefore, I just don't believe that this small demographic difference is enough to turn a supposedly "dead" format into a ratings-topper. Yeah, "the extra 10% of 55+ residents in Tampa are what make WDUV the most listened to station; without this extra 10%, this format would totally flop in any other market". With all due respect, I think that theory is plain baloney.
MY GUESS is that WDUV's music draws listeners of all ages based on its universal appeal. The music has catchy tunes, it has plenty of instruments besides electronic percussion or ear-splitting horns/guitars, and it just "flows"...sadly, these characteristics are generally missing on the radio today. Sure, most young people won't admit to liking WDUV's music, because it is pretty much the most "uncool" music around today. But this does not mean that they don't secretly enjoy the music, and listen to it in the car when no one else is around. As a 27 year old male (bet you didn't see that one coming
), I think WDUV's format is probably my favorite radio format of all time...yet I never divulge this to anyone except my wife, parents, etc...in fear of being ridiculed. Now I'm not saying that everyone my age loves to listen Neil Diamond or the Carpenters on a daily basis, but I do believe that a significant percentage of WDUV's audience is in fact YOUNGER people."
Must Hear This Album
Well-Known Member
One radio trend I can’t wait to see pass is the current obsession with dystopia (i.e., "a society characterized by human misery, as squalor, oppression, disease, and overcrowding”). It’s rampant in pop music today, from younger artists, like 16 year-old Lorde, the twenty-something Lana Del Rey, Sia, to “older" artists, like Kanye West and Madonna. I feel like If Richard and Karen's art was a musical balm to a tumultuous time in history (e.g., Vietnam, Altamont, Kent State, Manson murders, Watergate, etc.), I wonder what the recent radio doom-gloom is responding to? That’s why I find artists like Rumer so refreshing. I feel like most top 40 radio today is programmed by Aunty Entity, from “Beyond Thunderdome.”
song4u
Well-Known Member
That explains why our local oldies station is playing more 80's (ewww) and less 70's music. I don't get it - we, the baby boomer generation, are 'the oldies' aren't we?
Being that this website deals almost exclusively with US commercial radio, I doubt that anything the BBC does would much concern them. (By the way, I know for sure at least one frequent contributor here is very big on this other site; though he is not the party I mentioned in starting this thread.)
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Frankly, crapping on others' tastes in music isn't going to help your own cause. (You are now officially "somebody's dad" musically. Here's your Jim Nabors album...)
GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
CARLTON FLETCHER: Today's pop is about Top 1,5 not 40
OPINION: Modern popular music leaves little room for new acts
Every generation is required — by law, I think — to belittle and generally loathe the music of each subsequent generation. It is the inherent right of every generation to feel superior musically to the generations that follow simply because they’re obviously much more mature and able to discern “good music” from “that crap that kids are listening to these days.”
##(This corollary, by the way, does not apply to the generation that came along during the ’80s. Their music pretty much sucked in general. Sorry, guys, it just did.)
##One of the advantages I’ve had as a parent of music-loving kids from three distinct generations — and as someone who came of age in the late ’60s and early ’70s, when the best music ever was made … and I’ll accept no argument there — is that I’ve had the pleasure of being introduced to my kids’ favorite music while sharing with them … ahem … the best music ever.
##Some of my fondest memories involve sharing new (or, in my case, old) music with the kids. I’ve also come to not just appreciate but often love the music of artists like Outkast, Skrillex, Fall Out Boy, Adele and even One Direction because of my kids. They, in turn, all love the Beatles and the Allman Brothers and Zeppelin, and the 12-year-old even has a thing for Elvis that would rival women of the ’50s who still mourn his death.
By choice, at times, but often out of parental wimpiness, I’ve had more opportunities to listen to today’s pop music than most of my peers. And while I’ll confess I don’t see what my young daughter does in pop stars like Taylor Swift, Ariana Grande, Iggy Azalea and Jason Derulo, I admit there are some really excellent artists making music these days.
##(I challenge all you older-generation doubters to go to The YouTubes on your computer — get your kids or grandkids to show you how — and listen to “Jealous” by Nick Jonas and “Uptown Funk” by Mark Ronson and Bruno Mars. Those are two of the best pop songs that have been released in maybe decades. … Of course, it doesn’t hurt that Jonas sounds more like Smokey Robinson than any white boy I’ve ever heard, and if you children of the ’60s close your eyes and listen to the Ronson/Mars’ hit — Gotta love the “Don’t believe me? Just watch!”-es — you’ll swear you’re hearing vintage-era James Brown.)
##I’ve found one big difference in listening to today’s pop music as compared to the pop music of my era, and it’s a very annoying difference. It doesn’t matter if you’re listening to a terrestrial pop radio station (like 97.3 locally) or to “Today’s Hits” on satellite radio, you’re going to hear the most popular songs as often as three to four times within a given hour.
Hey, we may not have had satellite radio back in the day, but we did have “Top 40” radio. Even if we weren’t yet hip or cool enough to listen to album cuts on FM radio (which was just starting to catch on), at least we were getting a variety of songs. And, since there was a true Top 40 in those days, there was room on pop radio for acts as diverse as the Carpenters, Led Zeppelin, Harry Chapin, the Jackson 5, the Rolling Stones and the Bay City Rollers … all at the same time!
##There’s no such thing as Top 40 these days. In fact, pop radio today has to stretch to find a Top 20. It’s more like a Top 10 to 15. And, thus, even the good songs (a la “Jealous” and “Uptown Funk” and “Centuries” by Fall Out Boy and “Chandalier” by Sia) get played and played and played to death. In addition to being annoying, such a format also makes it more difficult for deserving young artists to get their music out to a wider audience.
##So, yes, I’ll admit to my 12-year-old that some of her pop musical heroes are indeed equals to some of the bands I grew up loving. But as Groucho Marx allegedly said to the lady with 10 kids, “I love my cigar, too, but I take it out of my mouth every once in a while.”
Source:
http://www.albanyherald.com/news/2015/jan/10/carlton-fletcher-today8217s-pop-is-about-top-15/
OPINION: Modern popular music leaves little room for new acts
Every generation is required — by law, I think — to belittle and generally loathe the music of each subsequent generation. It is the inherent right of every generation to feel superior musically to the generations that follow simply because they’re obviously much more mature and able to discern “good music” from “that crap that kids are listening to these days.”
##(This corollary, by the way, does not apply to the generation that came along during the ’80s. Their music pretty much sucked in general. Sorry, guys, it just did.)
##One of the advantages I’ve had as a parent of music-loving kids from three distinct generations — and as someone who came of age in the late ’60s and early ’70s, when the best music ever was made … and I’ll accept no argument there — is that I’ve had the pleasure of being introduced to my kids’ favorite music while sharing with them … ahem … the best music ever.
##Some of my fondest memories involve sharing new (or, in my case, old) music with the kids. I’ve also come to not just appreciate but often love the music of artists like Outkast, Skrillex, Fall Out Boy, Adele and even One Direction because of my kids. They, in turn, all love the Beatles and the Allman Brothers and Zeppelin, and the 12-year-old even has a thing for Elvis that would rival women of the ’50s who still mourn his death.
By choice, at times, but often out of parental wimpiness, I’ve had more opportunities to listen to today’s pop music than most of my peers. And while I’ll confess I don’t see what my young daughter does in pop stars like Taylor Swift, Ariana Grande, Iggy Azalea and Jason Derulo, I admit there are some really excellent artists making music these days.
##(I challenge all you older-generation doubters to go to The YouTubes on your computer — get your kids or grandkids to show you how — and listen to “Jealous” by Nick Jonas and “Uptown Funk” by Mark Ronson and Bruno Mars. Those are two of the best pop songs that have been released in maybe decades. … Of course, it doesn’t hurt that Jonas sounds more like Smokey Robinson than any white boy I’ve ever heard, and if you children of the ’60s close your eyes and listen to the Ronson/Mars’ hit — Gotta love the “Don’t believe me? Just watch!”-es — you’ll swear you’re hearing vintage-era James Brown.)
##I’ve found one big difference in listening to today’s pop music as compared to the pop music of my era, and it’s a very annoying difference. It doesn’t matter if you’re listening to a terrestrial pop radio station (like 97.3 locally) or to “Today’s Hits” on satellite radio, you’re going to hear the most popular songs as often as three to four times within a given hour.
Hey, we may not have had satellite radio back in the day, but we did have “Top 40” radio. Even if we weren’t yet hip or cool enough to listen to album cuts on FM radio (which was just starting to catch on), at least we were getting a variety of songs. And, since there was a true Top 40 in those days, there was room on pop radio for acts as diverse as the Carpenters, Led Zeppelin, Harry Chapin, the Jackson 5, the Rolling Stones and the Bay City Rollers … all at the same time!
##There’s no such thing as Top 40 these days. In fact, pop radio today has to stretch to find a Top 20. It’s more like a Top 10 to 15. And, thus, even the good songs (a la “Jealous” and “Uptown Funk” and “Centuries” by Fall Out Boy and “Chandalier” by Sia) get played and played and played to death. In addition to being annoying, such a format also makes it more difficult for deserving young artists to get their music out to a wider audience.
##So, yes, I’ll admit to my 12-year-old that some of her pop musical heroes are indeed equals to some of the bands I grew up loving. But as Groucho Marx allegedly said to the lady with 10 kids, “I love my cigar, too, but I take it out of my mouth every once in a while.”
Source:
http://www.albanyherald.com/news/2015/jan/10/carlton-fletcher-today8217s-pop-is-about-top-15/
GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
January 10,2015:
Omaha-based Walnut Radio, owner of three other area stations, closed on its deal to buy KOMJ this month and quietly made a slight format switchover this week.
The music will remain mostly the same, Stibbs said. The new “Boomer” moniker refers to the baby boom generation the station is designed to attract.
“The greatest music ever made, from the ’50s to today’s crooners,” says a Walnut Radio statement. “From Elvis to Michael Buble, the Beatles to Rod Stewart, Barry Manilow to Motown, the Beach Boys to the Carpenters and many more of the artists and eras that boomers loved then and love now.”
Source:
http://www.omaha.com/money/with-sta...cle_0db2560a-9839-11e4-b232-578030085f6a.html
Omaha-based Walnut Radio, owner of three other area stations, closed on its deal to buy KOMJ this month and quietly made a slight format switchover this week.
The music will remain mostly the same, Stibbs said. The new “Boomer” moniker refers to the baby boom generation the station is designed to attract.
“The greatest music ever made, from the ’50s to today’s crooners,” says a Walnut Radio statement. “From Elvis to Michael Buble, the Beatles to Rod Stewart, Barry Manilow to Motown, the Beach Boys to the Carpenters and many more of the artists and eras that boomers loved then and love now.”
Source:
http://www.omaha.com/money/with-sta...cle_0db2560a-9839-11e4-b232-578030085f6a.html
Okay, so "We've Only Just Begun" is a great record, right? It should sound great to anyone who listens to it, right?
Well, let's look at some of the numbers:
"We've Only Just Begun" is a product of 1970. That's 45 years ago.
Now, put yourself back in 1970, happily listening to the radio and hearing "We've only Just Begun" supplant "(They Long To Be) Close To You" on the radio. Now, imagine that that radio station followed the song up with a 45-year-old song, "Tea For Two", written in 1925.
Is "We've Only Just Begun" as hopelessly dated-sounding as "Tea For Two"? I don't think so. But it may sound like a relic of an earlier era to some of today's younger ears.
Just some food for thought on a Sunday morning.
Harry
Well, let's look at some of the numbers:
"We've Only Just Begun" is a product of 1970. That's 45 years ago.
Now, put yourself back in 1970, happily listening to the radio and hearing "We've only Just Begun" supplant "(They Long To Be) Close To You" on the radio. Now, imagine that that radio station followed the song up with a 45-year-old song, "Tea For Two", written in 1925.
Is "We've Only Just Begun" as hopelessly dated-sounding as "Tea For Two"? I don't think so. But it may sound like a relic of an earlier era to some of today's younger ears.
Just some food for thought on a Sunday morning.
Harry
GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
Reminds me of a line present in a rather obscure text on Special Relativity:
"...it is also necessary to prevent research physicists from connecting the value of a scientific paper with its date, a
practice that is, alas, all too frequent." (Arzelies, Relativistic Point Dynamics, 1972).
N.B.: As it pertains to this discussion, ignore the date on the record ! Either it has value, or it doesn't. Attaching arbitrariness--as
embodied in the manner of chronology--does nothing to instill aesthetic value to a song.
"...it is also necessary to prevent research physicists from connecting the value of a scientific paper with its date, a
practice that is, alas, all too frequent." (Arzelies, Relativistic Point Dynamics, 1972).
N.B.: As it pertains to this discussion, ignore the date on the record ! Either it has value, or it doesn't. Attaching arbitrariness--as
embodied in the manner of chronology--does nothing to instill aesthetic value to a song.
If it were, say, a Sammy Kaye version of "Tea For Two" played back then, yes. On the other hand, a number of performers from the 90's to the present have succeeded admirably in re-popularizing old songs by placing them in new settings (Linda Ronstadt, Rod Stewart, etc.) I find this preferable to the Harry Connick types who seem determined to make "new old records" with deliberate, almost parodyish, big-band-era arrangements. (Whether you could do much with "Tea For Two" is another question...)
I'm glad I keep my ears open to current pop music. Do I like everything? No. Did I like everything 40 years ago? Also no. But I'd like to believe being receptive and not automatically rejecting everything new keeps one "young at heart." Last year, while waiting for a bus, I faked a twenty-something couple out of their socks by quoting the lyrics from Karman's "Brokenhearted." The reverse holds true too; I was rummaging thru a boxful of old Dean Martin 45's at the local vinyl shop when a young goth guy with pierced everything faked me out of my socks by singing part of "Hey, Brother, Pour The Wine" word-for-note perfect. One never do know, do one? (This thread is wandering off track, and I'm not helping matters any, so will wrap this up.)
In a couple of early incarnations of the radio station I worked for, there were program/music directors who did, in fact, totally ignore the era from which a song came. If it fit the format, it was played - providing of course that the record didn't have any negative effects on the audience. So a song like "You Were On My Mind" by We Five from way back in 1963-4 was still relevant and played well into the '90s. I suspect it still gets some airplay out there. I've also mentioned songs like "California Dreamin'" by the Mamas & The Papas in an older thread about "timeless" recordings.
And I really believe that a lot of Carpenters songs would, in fact, be among those timeless recordings - but the people who deem Carpenters as negatives, are, alas, still alive and kicking. I certainly don't wish any ills on anyone for a music preference, but I believe that until they die off, Carpenters music will remain a buried treasure as far as mass marketing goes.
Harry
And I really believe that a lot of Carpenters songs would, in fact, be among those timeless recordings - but the people who deem Carpenters as negatives, are, alas, still alive and kicking. I certainly don't wish any ills on anyone for a music preference, but I believe that until they die off, Carpenters music will remain a buried treasure as far as mass marketing goes.
Harry
GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
A fascinating thread!
My mother believes my taste in music is way too old ( Big Band, Herb Alpert, Les Paul&Mary Ford, Dean Martin, Patti Page....).
My 21 year-old niece started --as of last year--collecting Carpenters' Vinyl to play on her Record Player.
Two of my 23 year-old nephews not only enjoy Carpenters' music, they won prizes at school for knowing who they were!
Time and again, I find that younger generations-- when introduced to the Carpenters' music--without any 'image' baggage affixed---enjoy the music.
No one can honestly --in the end--deny that Voice!
Many Carpenters' recordings remain timeless, for sure.
My mother believes my taste in music is way too old ( Big Band, Herb Alpert, Les Paul&Mary Ford, Dean Martin, Patti Page....).
My 21 year-old niece started --as of last year--collecting Carpenters' Vinyl to play on her Record Player.
Two of my 23 year-old nephews not only enjoy Carpenters' music, they won prizes at school for knowing who they were!
Time and again, I find that younger generations-- when introduced to the Carpenters' music--without any 'image' baggage affixed---enjoy the music.
No one can honestly --in the end--deny that Voice!
Many Carpenters' recordings remain timeless, for sure.
song4u
Well-Known Member
Ha! I've been somebody's mom for 30 years, but I still love the 60's and 70's sound. I also like some 90's and forward music and listen to a local top 40 station. But I still cringe over some of the 80's sound. Can't we just skip that??Frankly, crapping on others' tastes in music isn't going to help your own cause. (You are now officially "somebody's dad" musically. Here's your Jim Nabors album...)
Jeff
Well-Known Member
Timeless...like Mom, apple pie and the good old USA. Some things never go out of style. Class is class. Just because Harry Winston's designs are years old doesn't make 'em any less brilliant. Good art and particularly the most gifted never go out of style. Just doesn't happen.
Jeff
Jeff
Joeyesterday
Well-Known Member
I'm simply stating it is a ridiculous notion to toss out a decade (70s) of music and the Carpenters as suggested by a Top radio programmer...and yes, I am somebody's Dad musically and otherwise, I do like modern music, but not modern radio because modern radio plays about 10% or less of quality songs....listen to the lyrics when you get a chance.Frankly, crapping on others' tastes in music isn't going to help your own cause. (You are now officially "somebody's dad" musically. Here's your Jim Nabors album...)
song4u
Well-Known Member
Looking back at my posts about 80s music, I see that I was in "curmudgeon" mode. My apologies. I looked at Rolling Stone's top albums of the 80s list and there was indeed some great music during that decade. I stand corrected.
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/lists/100-best-albums-of-the-eighties-20110418
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/lists/100-best-albums-of-the-eighties-20110418
song4u
Well-Known Member
So I found a radio friendly 80's song I like. Not timeless, but fun.
(Listening to Horizon today - now that's timeless!)
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...OIXpDhtjCyisbB8ow&sig2=-or1fs5ZRb1uV-BIioN_CQ
(Listening to Horizon today - now that's timeless!)
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...OIXpDhtjCyisbB8ow&sig2=-or1fs5ZRb1uV-BIioN_CQ
It depends what type of stations he's referring to-and which Carpenters tracks.
The main concept with radio programming is:the song has to fit the format of the station.
No Top-40 radio programmers will play K&R-or Streisand & Sinatra,for that matter.Select K&R tracks fit the format of Easy Listening,Lite-FM and Traditional Jazz stations-and that's where you will hear them.
I actually heard "Argentina" on a Classical station last year-the symphonic arrangement worked well with the format of that station.
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