Most successful duo

Status
Not open for further replies.
byline

byline

Well-Known Member
As alluded to in the AOTW: Carpenters "THE SINGLES, 1969-1973" thread, Daryl Hall and John Oates have been named by Billboard magazine as the most successful duo of the rock era, surpassing the Everly Brothers. Because it's Billboard, and not RIAA, making this designation, I have a feeling it has to do with the number of No. 1 singles/albums and how long they stayed on the charts (though I could be wrong about this). But, as Aaron Moyer pointed out, going solely by sales, the Carpenters have vastly outsold Hall & Oates. From the RIAA database:

  1. CARPENTERS, THE GOLD April 29, 1998 April 30, 2010 UNIVERSAL MUSIC ENTERPRISES Standard GOLD VIDEO LONGFORM DUO
  2. CARPENTERS, THE GOLD February 10, 2004 December 17, 2004 UTV Standard GOLD ALBUM DUO
  3. CARPENTERS, THE CLOSE TO YOU: REMEMBERING THE CARPENTERS February 24, 1998 October 07, 2004 MPI HOME VIDEO Standard GOLD VIDEO LONGFORM DUO
  4. CARPENTERS, THE LOVE SONGS March 24, 1998 June 12, 2000 A&M Standard GOLD ALBUM DUO
  5. CARPENTERS, THE AN OLD FASHIONED CHRISTMAS August 24, 1987 August 11, 1998 A&M Standard GOLD ALBUM DUO
  6. CARPENTERS, THE VOICE OF THE HEART October 11, 1983 July 24, 1998 A&M Standard GOLD ALBUM DUO
  7. CARPENTERS, THE CLOSE TO YOU November 13, 1970 April 16, 1998 A&M Standard PLATINUM ALBUM DUO
  8. CARPENTERS, THE CHRISTMAS PORTRAIT August 24, 1987 April 16, 1998 A&M Standard PLATINUM ALBUM DUO
  9. CARPENTERS, THE CARPENTERS March 24, 1971 April 16, 1998 A&M Standard 4.00x MULTI PLATINUM ALBUM DUO
  10. CARPENTERS, THE CARPENTERS March 24, 1971 April 16, 1998 A&M Standard PLATINUM ALBUM DUO
  11. CARPENTERS, THE A SONG FOR YOU June 13, 1972 April 16, 1998 A&M Standard 3.00x MULTI PLATINUM ALBUM DUO
  12. CARPENTERS, THE CLOSE TO YOU November 13, 1970 April 16, 1998 A&M Standard 2.00x MULTI PLATINUM ALBUM DUO
  13. CARPENTERS, THE HORIZON April 09, 1975 April 16, 1998 A&M Standard PLATINUM ALBUM DUO
  14. CARPENTERS, THE NOW & THEN May 09, 1973 April 16, 1998 A&M Standard PLATINUM ALBUM DUO
  15. CARPENTERS, THE NOW & THEN May 09, 1973 April 16, 1998 A&M Standard 2.00x MULTI PLATINUM ALBUM DUO
  16. CARPENTERS, THE THE SINGLES 1969 - 1973 November 19, 1973 April 16, 1998 A&M Standard 7.00x MULTI PLATINUM ALBUM DUO
  17. CARPENTERS, THE YESTERDAY ONCE MORE April 28, 1985 April 16, 1998 A&M Standard GOLD ALBUM DUO
  18. CARPENTERS, THE YESTERDAY ONCE MORE April 28, 1985 April 16, 1998 A&M Standard PLATINUM ALBUM DUO
  19. CARPENTERS, THE YESTERDAY ONCE MORE April 28, 1985 April 16, 1998 A&M Standard 2.00x MULTI PLATINUM ALBUM DUO
  20. CARPENTERS, THE A SONG FOR YOU June 13, 1972 April 16, 1998 A&M Standard PLATINUM ALBUM DUO
  21. CARPENTERS, THE THE SINGLES 1969 - 1973 November 19, 1973 November 19, 1992 A&M Standard 4.00x MULTI PLATINUM ALBUM DUO
  22. CARPENTERS, THE THE SINGLES 1969 - 1973 November 19, 1973 November 13, 1991 A&M Standard PLATINUM ALBUM DUO
  23. CARPENTERS, THE THE SINGLES 1969 - 1973 November 19, 1973 November 13, 1991 A&M Standard 3.00x MULTI PLATINUM ALBUM DUO
  24. CARPENTERS, THE CHRISTMAS PORTRAIT August 24, 1987 January 16, 1981 A&M Standard GOLD ALBUM DUO
  25. CARPENTERS, THE A KIND OF HUSH June 11, 1976 July 14, 1976 A&M Standard GOLD ALBUM DUO
  26. CARPENTERS, THE HORIZON April 09, 1975 June 17, 1975 A&M Standard GOLD ALBUM DUO
  27. CARPENTERS, THE PLEASE MR. POSTMAN November 30, -0001 February 11, 1975 A&M Standard GOLD SINGLE DUO
  28. CARPENTERS, THE TOP OF THE WORLD November 30, -0001 December 11, 1973 A&M Standard GOLD SINGLE DUO
  29. CARPENTERS, THE THE SINGLES 1969 - 1973 November 19, 1973 December 11, 1973 A&M Standard GOLD ALBUM DUO
  30. CARPENTERS, THE YESTERDAY ONCE MORE November 30, -0001 August 13, 1973 A&M Standard GOLD SINGLE DUO
  31. CARPENTERS, THE NOW & THEN May 09, 1973 June 07, 1973 A&M Standard GOLD ALBUM DUO
  32. CARPENTERS, THE SING November 30, -0001 May 17, 1973 A&M Standard GOLD SINGLE DUO
  33. CARPENTERS, THE A SONG FOR YOU June 13, 1972 July 10, 1972 A&M Standard GOLD ALBUM DUO
  34. CARPENTERS, THE HURTING EACH OTHER November 30, -0001 February 29, 1972 A&M Standard GOLD SINGLE DUO
  35. CARPENTERS, THE SUPERSTAR November 30, -0001 October 18, 1971 A&M Standard GOLD SINGLE DUO
  36. CARPENTERS, THE RAINY DAYS & MONDAYS November 30, -0001 July 21, 1971 A&M Standard GOLD SINGLE DUO
  37. CARPENTERS, THE CARPENTERS March 24, 1971 June 07, 1971 A&M Standard GOLD ALBUM DUO
  38. CARPENTERS, THE FOR ALL WE KNOW November 30, -0001 April 12, 1971 A&M Standard GOLD SINGLE DUO
  39. CARPENTERS, THE WE'VE ONLY JUST BEGUN November 30, -0001 November 13, 1970 A&M Standard GOLD SINGLE DUO
  40. CARPENTERS, THE CLOSE TO YOU November 13, 1970 November 13, 1970 A&M Standard GOLD ALBUM DUO
  41. CARPENTERS, THE (THEY LONG TO BE) CLOSE TO YOU November 30, -0001 August 12, 1970 A&M Standard GOLD SINGLE DUO

*****

  1. HALL & OATES ABANDONED LUNCHEONETTE January 01, 1973 December 13, 2002 ATLANTIC Standard PLATINUM ALBUM DUO
  2. HALL & OATES OOH YEAH! April 28, 1988 November 30, 1988 ARISTAStandard PLATINUM ALBUM DUO
  3. HALL & OATES OOH YEAH! April 28, 1988 June 30, 1988 ARISTAStandard GOLD ALBUM DUO
  4. HALL & OATES ROCK 'N SOUL LIVE November 30, -0001 July 15, 1986 RCA VIDEO PRODUCTIONS Standard GOLD VIDEO LONGFORM DUO
  5. HALL & OATES LIVE AT THE APOLLO WITH D. RUFFIN & E. KENDRICKS November 30, -0001 October 29, 1985 RCA Standard GOLD ALBUM DUO
  6. HALL & OATES ROCK 'N' SOUL, PART I November 30, -0001 April 01, 1985 RCA Standard 2.00x MULTI PLATINUM ALBUM DUO
  7. HALL & OATES H 2 O November 30, -0001 April 01, 1985 RCA Standard 2.00x MULTI PLATINUM ALBUM DUO
  8. HALL & OATES BIG BAM BOOM November 30, -0001 April 01, 1985 RCA Standard 2.00x MULTI PLATINUM ALBUM DUO
  9. HALL & OATES BIG BAM BOOM November 30, -0001 December 03, 1984 RCA Standard PLATINUM ALBUM DUO
  10. HALL & OATES BIG BAM BOOM November 30, -0001 December 03, 1984 RCA Standard GOLD ALBUM DUO
  11. HALL & OATES ROCK 'N' SOUL, PART I November 30, -0001 December 20, 1983 RCA Standard GOLD ALBUM DUO
  12. HALL & OATES ROCK 'N' SOUL, PART I November 30, -0001 December 20, 1983 RCA Standard PLATINUM ALBUM DUO
  13. HALL & OATES MANEATER November 30, -0001 January 14, 1983 RCA Standard GOLD SINGLE DUO
  14. HALL & OATES H 2 O November 30, -0001 December 16, 1982 RCA Standard PLATINUM ALBUM DUO
  15. HALL & OATES H 2 O November 30, -0001 December 14, 1982 RCA Standard GOLD ALBUM DUO
  16. HALL & OATES VOICES November 30, -0001 January 22, 1982 RCA Standard PLATINUM ALBUM DUO
  17. HALL & OATES I CAN'T GO FOR THAT (NO CAN DO) November 30, -0001 January 07, 1982 RCA Standard GOLD SINGLE DUO
  18. HALL & OATES PRIVATE EYES November 30, -0001 December 22, 1981 RCA Standard PLATINUM ALBUM DUO
  19. HALL & OATES PRIVATE EYES November 30, -0001 December 15, 1981 RCA Standard GOLD SINGLE DUO
  20. HALL & OATES PRIVATE EYES November 30, -0001 November 04, 1981 RCA Standard GOLD ALBUM DUO
  21. HALL & OATES KISS ON MY LIST November 30, -0001 May 22, 1981 RCA Standard GOLD SINGLE DUO
  22. HALL & OATES VOICES November 30, -0001 May 06, 1981 RCA Standard GOLD ALBUM DUO
  23. HALL & OATES ALONG THE RED LEDGE November 30, -0001 October 25, 1978 RCA Standard GOLD ALBUM DUO
  24. HALL & OATES BEAUTY ON A BACK STREET November 30, -0001 September 16, 1977 RCA Standard GOLD ALBUM DUO
  25. HALL & OATES RICH GIRL November 30, -0001 April 01, 1977 RCA Standard GOLD SINGLE DUO
  26. HALL & OATES DARYL HALL & JOHN OATES November 30, -0001 December 14, 1976 RCA Standard GOLD ALBUM DUO
  27. HALL & OATES BIGGER THAN BOTH OF US November 30, -0001 November 04, 1976 RCA Standard GOLD ALBUM DUO
  28. HALL & OATES ABANDONED LUNCHEONETTE January 01, 1973 October 05, 1976 ATLANTIC Standard GOLD ALBUM DUO
  29. HALL & OATES SARA SMILE November 30, -0001 June 30, 1976 RCA Standard GOLD SINGLE DUO

*****

Can anyone with more knowledge of the music business than I explain why that is?
 
byline, your assumption is partially correct. Billboard ranks their Top Artists based on success of the artist's singles only. They use a point system that awards each Top 40 hit a value dependent on it's highest charted position. For an example, a #1 hit earns 100 points, #2 earns 90, #3 earns 80 and decreases all the way down to 40 points for a hit that charts between #31-40.

Hall & Oates have achieved a career total of 2291 points and were ranked at #24 overall, The Everly Brothers achieved 1976 points and #36 overall and the Carpenters achieved 1687 points and #48 overall. The overall rankings may have changed a few positions since my edition of Billboard's Top 40 Hits due to the addition of prominent artists from more recent years. Other artists of interest who's point totals will not likely change, Donna Summer #46, Barry Manilow #49, Barbra Streisand #53, Three Dog Night #56, Cher #64, Neil Sedaka #67, Eagles #73, Simon & Garfunkel #82 and John Denver #92.

In the decade of the 70's, the Carpenters are ranked #4 overall behind Paul McCartney/Wings, Elton John and the Bee Gees. This gives our favorite duo the title of the top "American born" artists of the decade which has been used often to describe their very successful, though sadly short recording career. Not too shabby, hope this helps answer your question.
 
It is called creative bookkeeping to achieve a desired end. How did Hall & Oates get such favorable charting when it sold fewer singles in a time when more records were selling? Any mathematician would immediately see that this doesn't add up. If Hall & Oates were certified for selling 6 million singles and the Carpenters were certified for selling 10 million singles, how did Hall & Oates get so much chart time? For total U.S. sales, the Carpenters beat Hall & Oates by nearly 26 million units.

Check out the Wikipedia entry for Hall & Oates certifications and chart positions and you'll see that it is much shorter than what is listed for the Carpenters.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_&_Oates_discography and it states, "In the US the band (Hall & Oates) has sold a certified 13 million albums and 6 million singles." 22 March 2015. In another entry it states, "RIAA-certified sales of (The Carpenters) records (albums, singles and videos) have been estimated at around 34.6 million units." 14 March 2015. This is comparing apples to apples since this only represents U.S. sales. So how did Billboard get Hall & Oates to the #1 Duo position? By chart position alone? And with sales that total 26 million less units, how did Hall & Oates enjoy so much chart time? The request line at WTFW? Yup, it's clear Hall & Oates are the #1 duo.
 
Yes, by chart position alone, there is no question Hall & Oates are in the minor leagues when comparing record sales with the Carpenters. What really helped Hall & Oates as far as Billboard's rankings is that they charted 29 Top 40 hits compared to the Carpenters 20. The additional 9 hits at even the minimum point award of 40 makes a huge difference.

Other comparisons according to Billboard: Gold Singles, C's 10, H&O 6. Top 10 hits, H&O 16, C's 12. Number 1 hits, H&O 6, C's 3. Top 3 hits, C's 10, H&O 8. Number 1 AC hits, C's 15, H&O 2. Top 10 Country hits, C's 1, H&O 0. Additional note, Hall & Oates where ranked #3 overall in the decade of the 80's behind Michael Jackson and Madonna.

Aaron, I attempted to answer bylines question with my previous post which pertained to Billboard's format in ranking their top artists.
 
Last edited:
Thank you, Portlander. I had a feeling that it has to do with the way Billboard calculates "rewards" for chart position, but I really didn't have any clue what that was. I used to have a couple of Billboard books that probably explained all of that, but they and I parted ways on my last big move.

Aaron, I don't think Billboard or Rolling Stone have any agenda to put Hall & Oates ahead of the Carpenters. Billboard has its system, which Portlander explained. You can agree or disagree with it, but I don't think it's a sliding scale depending on the artist. And if Rolling Stone's editorial board favors Daryl and John over Karen and Richard at all, it's only marginally. Hall & Oates suffered from having their primary commercial success come with some rather loopy music videos that didn't score them any points with the "cool" crowd. Having lightweight '80s MTV- and radio-friendly hits like "Private Eyes" and "Maneater didn't do them any favors, either. (Personally, my favorite period in the Hall & Oates repertoire is all that preceded their '80s commercial success, but few people remember that they recorded a decade's worth of impressive albums before their MTV era.) Now, I could see Rolling Stone putting Simon & Garfunkel ahead of both, because that duo is heavily respected in just about every corner you want to consider. Is it fair? No, not really. But when we're considering something as subjective as opinion, it doesn't surprise me at all.
 
byline, Billboard came out with a 55th Anniversary ranking of the Top 100 artists of all time in 2013 and utilized a different format which was more favorable to the Carpenters. Instead of only scoring each artist's Top 40 hits, they utilized the entire Top 100 charts and also added in airplay, streaming, sales and weighed the impact of each individual era.

This ranking should please Aaron because it provides more subjective substance than Top 40 hits alone. The down side is that Hall & Oates still came in at an impressive #17 with the Carpenters positioned at #32, Barry Manilow at #62 and The Everly Brothers at only #66. Am in total agreement with your assessment of Daryl and John, their pre 80's catalog is great and "She's Gone", "Sara Smile", and "Rich Girl" have become classics. Once they converted to synthesizers and electronic drum kits like some other groups from that period my interest started to wane, however their musical accomplishments cannot be ignored.
 
Last edited:
So you all believe that 6 million selling singles is more than 10 million selling singles? Or that 19 million in RIAA sales is more than 34.6million in RIAA sales? You really don't believe that Billboard or Rolling Stone has any agenda? Math!!! It has always been a manipulation and you all buy into it!!!

And, NO, the ranking does not please me and YES, I can ignore Hall & Oates accomplishments when they are unjustly elevated above the Carpenters who not only outsold them but out performed them musically.
 
Not sure I am buying into anything, just stating documented facts. I have an autographed photo of Karen and Richard in my home, nothing on the walls promoting Hall & Oates. My personal ranking would place the Carpenters above them but not too many in the music industry would endorse my reasoning.

I respect your opinion Aaron and understand that RIAA sales figures is your preferred approach for measuring an artist's stature and musical legacy. I feel that it is an important ingredient, but when Eminem, Britney Spears, Jay Z and The Backstreet Boys have outsold the Carpenters worldwide it's hard for me to agree that it's the only factor that should be considered.
 
Last edited:
Aaron, I'm going to agree to disagree with you on the musical assessment of the contrasting duos. I know we all have our personal tastes, but Daryl Hall and John Oates have produced some amazing music, both as a duo and as solo artists. And they are still writing new songs, performing and recording to this day. I have to assume that like many who write off the Carpenters as "easy listening" because they haven't heard the complete body of work, you haven't heard the full range of what Daryl and John have done. If you are assessing their oeuvre based only on songs like "Private Eyes" and "Maneater," then I would tend to agree with you. But they've done much, much more than that. Along the Red Ledge (1978) is my favorite album of theirs, and on it they achieve things that Karen and Richard never dreamed of. Which is not to say I consider Karen and Richard lesser artists, because I don't. It's just that stylistically, Daryl and John were playing in a whole different musical toolbox.
 
byline said:
Aaron, I'm going to agree to disagree with you on the musical assessment of the contrasting duos. I know we all have our personal tastes, but Daryl Hall and John Oates have produced some amazing music, both as a duo and as solo artists. And they are still writing new songs, performing and recording to this day. I have to assume that like many who write off the Carpenters as "easy listening" because they haven't heard the complete body of work, you haven't heard the full range of what Daryl and John have done. If you are assessing their oeuvre based only on songs like "Private Eyes" and "Maneater," then I would tend to agree with you. But they've done much, much more than that. Along the Red Ledge (1978) is my favorite album of theirs, and on it they achieve things that Karen and Richard never dreamed of. Which is not to say I consider Karen and Richard lesser artists, because I don't. It's just that stylistically, Daryl and John were playing in a whole different musical toolbox.
Click to expand...
Do even know what site you are on? This is the CARPENTERS!
 
Aaron Moyer said:
Do even know what site you are on? This is the CARPENTERS!
Click to expand...
Uh, yes. We have been known to discuss other artists here. The pertinent point to this thread, which I started, is the contrast between the two duos, and the perceptions of their respective successes. I don't believe in praising one duo at the expense of the other (meaning that one duo has to be torn down in order to build the other up). IMO, they both have equal, but very different, qualities. I'm not sure why you would have a problem with that.
 
Last edited:
byline said:
Uh, yes. We have been known to discuss other artists here. The pertinent point to this thread, which I started, is the contrast between the two duos, and the perceptions of their respective successes. I don't believe in praising one duo at the expense of the other (meaning that one duo has to be torn down in order to build the other up). IMO, they both have equal, but very different, qualities. I'm not sure why you would have a problem with that.
Click to expand...
I had hoped that I could support and defend the Carpenters among their fans without getting the same critical treatment I have so enjoyed by non-Carpenter fans for the last 40 years. But alas, this site loves to discuss other artists and focus on perceived deficits in Karen and Richard and it is done with such veiled platitudes.
 
There are no "veiled platitudes" in my post. If you see them, then they're only in your imagination. What I was trying to describe is not an insult to Karen and Richard. If you were to listen to albums like "Along the Red Ledge" and "Abandoned Luncheonette" (as well as solo albums like Daryl's "Sacred Songs" and John's recent "Good Road to Follow"), you would hear them doing things Karen and Richard never would have dreamed of attempting. That's because this music is nowhere near their musical style. By the same token, Daryl and John never would have attempted the jazz-oriented vocal and instrumental layering that Karen and Richard did, because that's nowhere near their musical style.

As I said in my post above, I don't believe in tearing down one to build the other up, which you seem intent on doing. I can respect that that's your opinion. I just don't agree with it, and will stand by my own opinions of the respective merits of both Karen and Richard's and Daryl and John's work.
 
We follow this site due to our love and appreciation of the Carpenters but I am sure I am not alone in my passion for other artists and musical tastes. I was 13 when I saw Karen singing "Close to You" and playing the drums on TV and I have been a loyal supporter ever since. But for me to blindly dismiss the the talents and often outstanding recordings by Hall & Oates over their impressive career would make me pretty close minded. Title of byline's thread is "Most Successful Duo" and even the most diehard Carpenter fan would include Hall & Oates, The Everly Brothers, Simon & Garfunkel and probably even Donnie and Marie in the friendly discussion.
 
In fairness to Aaron, I think it would be safe to recognize Hall & Oates as the most successful charting duo of all time and the Carpenters as the biggest selling duo of all time. Best to all!
 
I have no particular love for Hall & Oates. They're OK, but not an act I've ever gravitated toward. But I will remind everyone that this "site", A&M Corner, is, first and foremost a site about appreciating ALL of music. In particular, the music that appeared on the A&M label, which runs the gamut from the old Herb Alpert/Tijuana Brass days to modern artists as diverse as the Black-eyed Peas and Sheryl Crow.

Truly, Carpenters fans have been the most active of late in the A SONG FOR YOU sub-forum, but discussions of any type of music is encouraged here.

That said, I have no doubts that creative math has been employed over the years to suppress the real numbers reflecting public's love for Karen & Richard. Too many number two's will do that...

Harry
 
Good points, Harry. It would be interesting to me if an industry insider were able to weigh in on what they know to be specific instances of deliberate creative math used to relegate Karen and Richard to a lesser status. I tend to think it's more a bias created by using specific criteria that would exclude them from contention, or move them down somehow. But then, isn't that what we're doing when we create a sub-category for "most successful" (whatever that means) duo, as opposed to band, solo artist, etc.? By creating those sub-categories, we're already selecting criteria that favor some artists over others. And we do so like to rank, don't we? Maybe if we were less focused on competitive rankings, and more focused on what we love about our favorite musicians, then all of this wouldn't matter so much. But I guess it's a circular argument, because the music industry uses those rankings as a promotional tool, which then affects the commercial success of the artists ... and around the wheel turns. For my own peace of mind, I have tried to focus less on rankings, awards and so on, all things that are beyond my control. But this is one topic that piqued my interest because it was brought up in another thread.
 
Sorry, guys. There is no "creative math" or big conspiracy here aimed specifically at Carpenters (or any other act on the list that isn't #1).

This particular organization chose a particular methodology in order to rank artists using QUANTITATIVE data. You can agree or disagree with the methodology (i.e. "bonus points" for number of weeks at #1, etc.), but it was designed to take the subjectivity out of it. When it comes to ranking musical "success," chart data is one of the only ways in which all artists can be treated without bias. It's all about the numbers and takes personal and/or critical opinion out of the equation. It is what it is and does not diminish the Carpenters' legacy in any way.
 
Aaron Moyer said:
So you all believe that 6 million selling singles is more than 10 million selling singles? Or that 19 million in RIAA sales is more than 34.6million in RIAA sales? You really don't believe that Billboard or Rolling Stone has any agenda? Math!!! It has always been a manipulation and you all buy into it!!!

And, NO, the ranking does not please me and YES, I can ignore Hall & Oates accomplishments when they are unjustly elevated above the Carpenters who not only outsold them but out performed them musically.
Click to expand...

This comparison between Hall & Oates and K&R takes apples and oranges to a whole other level!

There's no objective way to compare them from a musical perspective,as they are two totally different genre's of music- performing totally different types of material.

I would say that K&R were the top-selling duo in terms of album sales. But,Hall & Oates hold the top spot in terms of hit singles & top-40 radio airplay.

I remember Hall & Oates' top-40 heyday in the early 80's-and they did amazingly well as a pop singles act.Their records were tailor-made for top-40 radio.

But,a comparison between Hall & Oates and Loggins & Messina would be more appropriate(or Air Supply,Steely Dan,Eurythmics).
 
This is the difficulty we get into with these categorizations. Being "duos" may be the only thing these artists have in common. I would say that's true for all the other artists you cited. (Wham! would technically be another who was popular at around the same time as Hall & Oates in their heyday, though most would argue they weren't truly a duo, since George Michael handled the lion's share of work, with Andrew Ridgeley contributing not much at all.) If you compare them stylistically, they all have some pretty distinct differences. But of course sales or airplay data have nothing to do with artistry. Those statistics are what they are, generated by a certain methodology, and as Actorman noted, there's nothing we can do to change that besides arguing with the methodology. But then that might be a "careful what you ask for, you just might get it scenario. Changing the methodology might not work in favor of our favorite duo.
 
All of this is interesting, but misses a bigger point. The RIAA and Billboard data referenced in comparing groups, including Hall & Oates v. Carpenters, does not take into account INTERNATIONAL sales, insofar as I am aware. The Billboard Hot 100, I think, was based solely on U.S. sales/plays in the 70's (don't know about now). When international sales are taken into account, Karen and Richard far surpass H&O -- whom I have nothing against, but are just not as globally successful as Carpenters. Remember, Japan was the second largest record market in the world at the relevant period (still is, actually) and UK was number 3 (I think Germany is now). The Carpenters were enormous in those markets, especially Japan, where they succeeded the Beatles as the top-selling non-Japanese recording artists, until surpassed by Mariah Carey after Karen's death. Anyway, when you take these international markets into account, that's where Carpenters leave H&O and other groups in the dust. Much of this is detailed in one of my Splashing Rock's posts, http://splashingrocks.blogspot.com/2014/02/no-room-for-nice-in-rock-and-roll-hall.html. Further, if there were any way to quantify the Carpenters uncopyrighted sales/plays in China, where they were the most popular musical act for about 30 years, the sky would be the limit.
 
One P.S. while I'm at it, since we're discussing the question of how accurate the RIAA, Hot 100, etc., were/are in rating groups. RIAA has always rated the "Close to You" album as 2X platinum. I think someone with the time or inclination could show this is impossibly low. CTY was released in late 1970 and reached no. 2 on the Billboard Top 200 albums. But it stayed around very high for all of 1971 and, indeed, was the second highest-selling album by an identifiable recording artists for that entire year, just behind the astronomical-selling "Tapestry" by Carole King (No 1 was the "Jesus Christ Superstar" album, but that was by "various artists"). Behind CTY in 1971 sales -- remember, CTY had already had huge sales and reached No 2 in 1970 -- were Janis Joplin's "Pearl" and a blockbuster Santana album whose name i forget. There is simply no way CTY could have been No. 2 in 1970 and then No. 3 for the whole year in 1971 and total only 2X platinum, especially considering the blockbuster albums it finished ahead of. "Carpenters" was rated 4X platinum, yet CTY blew-out Carpenters in 1971 sales. There is something that just doesn't add up in all this. I really think somebody somewhere was undercutting the Carpenters.
 
February 11, 2011
When Goldmine started asking you what artists you’d like to read about, we weren’t quite sure how a Readers’ Choice issue would go over.
Thankfully, you graciously shared your opinions. You’ll find the winners and overall article category results listed with the articles on the pages that follow.
This issue threw a darn big learning curve at Team Goldmine. We’d never really done anything like this before, so we weren’t entirely sure where to get started. But that didn’t matter as much as our mission: We really wanted to bring together a selection of articles that you, the readers, specifically said you would enjoy.
What you hold now is the product of countless hours spent researching data, hunting for perfect pictures and tweaking the magazine’s design to look “just so.” We hope you enjoy it (and grade us kindly and on a curve, as this is our first one.)
We’ve made a list of what we’ve learned from this year’s Readers’ Choice, and we’re already starting planning for our next one, which is coming up faster than we want to acknowledge. We look forward to hearing your feedback on what we can do to make our next Readers’ Choice issue even more fun!
DUOS
1. Simon & Garfunkel
2. Everly Brothers
3. Steely Dan
4. Hall & Oates
5. Carpenters
6. Righteous Brothers
7. America
8. Loggins & Messina
9. White Stripes
10. Seals & Crofts
Source:
http://www.goldminemag.com/features/goldmines-readers-choice-by-the-numbers
 
Thanks, Gary--that Goldmine list creates a much better historical context for framing this discussion. (Not saying that I agree with the placement!!)

Would it be possible for the great research folks on hand here to put some numerical data against these names, just so we can see what all of that looks like? Data such as what's been discussed in a piecemeal fashion previously (total record sales, the various chart hit data, awards and honors--NOT including...ahem...admission to the R&RHOF!!!) and maybe some way of assessing "peak impact" (something like sales and chart action over a shorter time frame...maybe 3-5 years).

That would give us a "success" perspective that could be examined in light of what is more likely a more qualitative list from Goldmine. Clearly this list is focused on the more "formative" aspects of rock history, which I think explains the 1-2-3 slots. It would be interesting to see the data on those three duos, though, to see how they compare in terms of sales.
 
Not sure why America is on this list, they were originally a trio and remained one through most of their commercial success years. Dan Peek left the band in 1977 and America could only muster two Top 40 hits (You Can Do Magic #8 and On The Border #33) after his departure. Steely Dan? I have always liked their music but they were a talented studio act that never toured until the 90's and only charted 3 Top 10 hits, and no one would recognize either of them if they walked past you in the mall.

As far as "peak impact", only Elton John could match the Carpenters stature and popularity in the music world from 1970-75. In that 5 year block, even if you disliked their recordings and them as an act, you definitely knew who the Carpenters were. They were constantly on the radio, extensively touring the world, Boston Pops performance, two White House visits along with numerous television appearances. Those were my high school years and I remember them well, I think?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar discussions

A
Mark Lindsay
Replies
6
Views
605
AM Matt
A
Mark-T
Compiled Carpenters Recording Chronology
Replies
18
Views
2K
John Tkacik
J
Rudy
  • Article
📣 News The Songs of Bacharach & Costello
Replies
14
Views
1K
Rudy
Rudy
Harry
Sergio Article in AZ Central
Replies
0
Views
1K
Harry
Harry
Rudy
  • Article
📜 Feature Dionne Warwick Sings the Complete Bacharach/David Songbook
2
Replies
28
Views
2K
Mark-T
Mark-T
Back
Top Bottom