Karen Carpenter (The Drummer Who Sang)

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

I can't remember which interview, I think it was the Close to You DVD that Richard said something like, to this day I truly believe that Karen considered herself a drummer who sang. Correct me if I'm wrong.

All of these videos recently showing Karen just wailing on those drums in concerts in the early years got me thinking....we know that drumming had to be her first love and watching her perform on those drums is really something special to watch....even in the early days like the BBC with her drumming on "And When He Smiles" even a tune that is softly sung, Karen still showed she could drum. The Carpenters did so many live shows in which Karen hit the crap out of those drums...we are only seeing a few videos but just think of all the shows they did around the U.S. and other countries when she was the drummer.

The reason for this post is...why do you think Karen allowed herself to abandon her first love of drumming....we know they wanted her to get from out of the drums and take center stage but she could still have contributed a song or 2 on drums, not just in concerts but on the records. It seems toward the last half of their career Karen's drumming is gone. Karen could have spoke up and said how about I drum on this or something like that.

I'm not a drummer but I can't understand how someone as good as she was on drums to just never play them again for the audience. It's like a pianist doing concerts for years and then never playing piano again, wouldn't they miss it terribly? Didn't Karen once say to someone (I can't remember who) looking at the drums saying I guess I'll never play these again.

As a side note, does anyone know when the last "public" appearance we ever saw of Karen on the drums what year??

 

[newvillefan]

Didn't Karen once say to someone (I can't remember who) looking at the drums saying I guess I'll never play these again.

That conversation happened in New York in 1979 when she got behind the drums to show Liberty DeVitto what she could do with her chops. He asked why she didn't drum any more and she replied something along the lines of "those days are over". I think she also made some reference to her weight and that it didn't help her rear end. It's quite sad when you think about it, given how alive she came when she got behind the kit. I think it was pure pressure that forced her to give up the drums, to the point where no one at the label felt it relevant to sell her as a drummer any more. Once she'd become the "star", they'd refined their sound and brought in established musicians like Hal Blaine, having Karen as a drummer in the latter half of the seventies was probably just reduced to "novelty" value, something they could wheel her out to do in the live concerts and of course we all know that there were no more real concert tours after 1978.

As a side note, does anyone know when the last "public" appearance we ever saw of Karen on the drums what year??

I'm not 100% sure but I'd have to say the 1976 concert tour (including the UK at the Palladium). I'm not sure there's any evidence of Karen drumming in the set list of the 1977/1978 concerts that led up to the point where Richard pulled the plug on the MGM dates.

 

[Joeyesterday]

Just a theory, but with Karen's condition getting worse and her energy level dropping, maybe just singing was the easiest thing to do. Drumming does take a lot of energy.

 

[GaryAlan]

Chris, I do not for a moment subscribe to the belief that:
"...Karen allowed herself to abandon her first love of drumming..."
She was not given that choice, it was made for her.
I'll put it another way:
Did anyone ask, and then compel, Richard to abandon the keyboards--in concert or recordings ?
Never would he 'allow' that to happen. He would not let himself be
replaced on keyboards for the single Close To You--even though it was attempted.
(Although, he is absent--his own choice--from the December 1978 Forsyth TV Program)
Once everyone realized (and, decided) that it was Karen Carpenter whose:
(1) stage presence was valued above all else (quoted from Sherwin Bash TV documentary)
....Mancini: "..In person, she had IT, and that's all I was interested in." (Coleman , page 80)
and ,
(2) Karen's vocals that 'sold' the sound--both in concert and on the recordings--- "money is in the basement "---
(Olivia..."well, she is the Carpenters sound, it is her voice that made that sound..." Coleman ,page 274)
then,
it was decided that Karen Carpenter's voice was going to supersede her love of drumming.
("I just knew that if Karen was the Lead Singer, that was it!"...Richard Carpenter in Coleman, page 99)
Karen, as you say, "could have spoken up ", Richard even says same regarding release of the solo, but,
my feeling is that she was tired of arguing ; seems as if once it was decided that her brother was the musical architect,
the leader of all things musical, she was "...just the singer.." ( "Sometimes Karen might take too long on a part,
persist in doing it her way, and Richard would be backstage wailing. Toward the end of Rainy Days she might take her
pause to the maximum, and they'd get into a shouting match"...Doug Strawn in Coleman page 119)
In short,
My theory, my speculation: It was never her decision to abandon the drums.
Coleman:"...I got the feeling that Karen was not much more than the messenger." (ibid., page 163)

 

[adam]

Quote from Karen Carpenter.I gotta sing i love that crowd

 

[song4u]

I think she was encouraged, even persuaded to get out from behind the drums for the good of the act. If it was suggested that Richard do the same with the piano, stage mother Agnes would have raised a ruckus I'm sure.

 

[newvillefan]

I think she was encouraged, even persuaded to get out from behind the drums for the good of the act. If it was suggested that Richard do the same with the piano, stage mother Agnes would have raised a ruckus I'm sure.

Where was he going to go? He had no stage presence and wasn't a lead singer.

 

[GaryAlan]

Here is (reportedly) Hal Blaine:
HB: "As a drummer, you’re sitting in a room at your kit in a tight space, and the mikes are highly sensitive.
Most drummers are used to knocking the hell out of their set.
But in the studio, at least back then, before the digital recording age, you didn’t do that.
With all those mikes, you can’t be wailing away or you’ll hit one of the stands.
You also have to develop a technique of playing in your own little zone of space. You have to play gentle.
If a song calls for something a little heavier, you turn the sticks around so you’re using the thicker end.
It’s like the difference between driving a little car and a semi-truck. There are different rules for maneuvering."
"..... She loved the drums, which helped her a great deal as a singer in terms of her time and tempo."
Source:
http://www.jazzwax.com/2012/05/hal-blaine-on-karen-carpenter.html

This does NOT explain, in fact contrasts to, the reason Karen Carpenter was withheld from drumming on Close To You.

 

[newvillefan]

If a song calls for something a little heavier, you turn the sticks around so you’re using the thicker end.

If you watch the First Television Special, she does this very thing. Something I'd never seen a drummer do until I watched Karen perform.

 

[song4u]

Where was he going to go? He had no stage presence and wasn't a lead singer.

It's interesting trying to figure him out, huh. He is truly gifted, and has said he firmly believes that he and Karen were born to perform together. It is awe inspiring how their talents complemented each other. But he always seemed to shy away from the thought of working on scoring or composing for films or stage. I don't know how much of his reluctance to work without Karen was his self confidence being tied to working with Karen as a duo, how much was mother's urging that "Richard and Karen perform together", and how much was because he actually had no desire to work without Karen during her lifetime. I'm just glad they left us the legacy they did.

 

[Harry]

If Karen missed playing drums so much, then why didn't she insist on playing them on her solo album. It was her dime, so to speak. So was Phil Ramone in on the "big plot" to keep Karen from her drums?

Harry

 

[Mark-T]

I think she didn't play on the solo album because she was wanting a new sound and new image.

 

[newvillefan]

It's interesting trying to figure him out, huh. He is truly gifted, and has said he firmly believes that he and Karen were born to perform together. It is awe inspiring how their talents complemented each other. But he always seemed to shy away from the thought of working on scoring or composing for films or stage. I don't know how much of his reluctance to work without Karen was his self confidence being tied to working with Karen as a duo, how much was mother's urging that "Richard and Karen perform together", and how much was because he actually had no desire to work without Karen during her lifetime. I'm just glad they left us the legacy they did.

I just wish he'd tried it during their career. Try 'The Rescuers'...anything to break away from the mould. It would have been so healthy for the pair of them and given them the shot in the arm they both needed.

 

[GaryAlan]

My two cents:
Once again, the solo album wasn't even Karen's idea ("A&M and Weintraub's plan" ,Coleman p.263),
and then, when she was on-board, so to speak,
she was met with Richard's resistance. (Werner Wolfen "... livid at the idea, he thought it treachery of a sort"(p.264, Coleman).
When, assuming at that time that she was physically able to drum, did Karen get her say? I mean, after all this, it was shelved.
There is NO "big plot"...merely facts as documented. The solo was attempting a complete break from the past,
( "trying to reinvent", see Coleman page 265-266).
It was Karen's decision to have the other drummers in the studio for that album, as she confessed
love for drumming of Steve Gadd (see Fan Club Newletter #75 June 1982).
By the time 1979-1980 approached, physically she was probably too ill to play drums, and sing. ( to wit: Paris 1981 Top of the World)
Previous to that time, if in good health, she played the drums.
Coleman, page 100: "Richard realized that her profile was much stronger than that of a drummer." (this, June 1971)
No Plot, just documentation.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

This is my point, how much did she really miss drumming? She could have easily did a drum fill on her solo album even if she was going for a different direction most of the public knew her as a singer and wouldn't have read the credits to see if she played drums on any of her solo tracks.

Its weird because they even incorporated into their shows saying and more and more drums kept coming in the house and them Karen had this opportunity on stage to show just how good she was as a drummer. Then it all disappeared and she stopped drumming.

I also wonder if Karen got any calls in the early part of her career from other artists saying, hey Karen I've seen you play drums how would you like to guest drum on this particular track for my new album, I just need you for a certain track not the entire album would you be available.

 

[Mark-T]

"I also wonder if Karen got any calls in the early part of her career from other artists saying, hey Karen I've seen you play drums how would you like to guest drum on this particular track for my new album, I just need you for a certain track not the entire album would you be available."

How fun would that have been! And maybe guest vocalist too...

 

[GaryAlan]

Chris, you pose a very good question!
A partial answer, in reference to the solo:
According to Phil Ramone:
"...Karen liked the energy on Billy Joel's records, so we decided to use his band---
Russell Javors, Doug Stegmeyer, Liberty Devitto" (Phil Ramone, Making Records, 2007, Page 97).
Her drumming skills and vocals overshadow everything !

( Watch Your All American College Shows ,The name "Karen Carpenter" written boldly on her drum kit).
Early concerts: Karen drums and sings simultaneously.
Later Concerts: The drum solos (sans vocals) and the piano solos. (Warsaw Concert and Piano Picker).
A clear delineation/demarcation transpires in how the Later Shows present Karen and Richard.

 

[Harry]

A clear delineation/demarcation transpires in how the Later Shows present Karen and Richard.

This of course was designed by Ken & Mitzi Welch to showcase the individual talents of the duo. It was all designed as sort of a musical "bio" to perhaps familiarize the uninitiated with a bit of their history.

Harry

 

[GaryAlan]

From Schmidt,Yesterday Once More Reader, Page 208:
Quoted from Billboard Interview 1977,
" ...Karen, since the past two albums, has ceased playing drums to allow her to concentrate on singing.
She says: "Richard wanted a stronger sound, and I no longer have the strength."

 

[KACE]

Then there's that old argument that the audience couldn't see Karen sitting behind the drums in concert. Seriously? I still remember my first Carpenters' concert in early-mid 1971.
I was absolutely transfixed on her drumming! Had seats up and to the side, giving me a great view-even better with the binoculars I used. Of course, I realize that those in the front rows probably had a hard time, but that was Karen's role as a musician/lead singer in the band. And all the more remarkable and unique because she did both so well and simultaneously!

Just can not imagine anyone in the audience during Karen's drumming and singing days saying to themselves: "She can play those drums, but I'd really like to be able to see her better.
If only she'd get out from behind those, so I could really get a good look at who's singing."

 

[GaryAlan]

The 12 greatest singing drummers ever,
August 2011
From:http://www.musicradar.com/news/drums/the-12-greatest-singing-drummers-ever-486045/6
"In the case of Karen Carpenter, who with her brother, Richard, made up one of the most successful musical duos of all time, the quality of her singing is undisputed. On hit after hit after hit (Close To You, Rainy Days And Mondays, We've Only Just Begun, Superstar, For All We Know, etc.), Karen's velvety and vaguely haunting voice ruled the airwaves during the 1970s.
So it is then that we must consider her skills behind the drum kit, and the fact is, they were considerable. As a teenager, Karen was strongly influenced by Dave Brubeck Quartet drummer Joe Morello. With only a few years of experience under her belt, she taught herself the odd-time patterns of Brubeck's faves such as Take Five and It's A Raggy Waltz.
It is common knowledge that Wrecking Crew drummer Hal Blaine played on a number of recordings by the Carpenters. Even so, he was knocked out by Karen's talent with the sticks. "I always said that Karen was a good drummer," Blaine told Modern Drummer in 1983. "I knew she could play right away when she'd sit down at my drums on sessions. She played on a lot of the album cuts, and she played when they performed live, as well."

 

[GaryAlan]

Remember This:
MODERN DRUMMER
Volume 25, Number 4, Rod Fogarty
To say that Karen Carpenter was one of the finest vocalist of her generation in nothing new. Songs like "We've Only Just Begun," "Superstar," "Rainy Days And Mondays," and "Top Of The World" weren't just radio staples in the '70s, but have withstood the test of time. And a whole new generation, inspired by a fondness of all things groovy and smiley faced, has embraced Karen's amazing singing and her brother Richard's wonderful songs and arrangements. In fact, the 1994 album If I Were A Carpenter featured a stellar cast of alternative artists like Sheryl Crow, Cracker, Sonic Youth, The Cranberries, and Redd Kross interpreting the duo's hits in a whole new way.
Yet many have failed to recognize just how good a drummer Karen Carpenter was. This can probably be attributed to the fact that many of the better-known Carpenters recordings featured studio drummers like Hal Blaine, Cubby O'Brien, Jim Gordon, and Ronnie Tutt. Fortunately, in recent years we've seen the release or reissue of many recordings where we can hear Karen playing. These bring into focus the real gifts of Karen Carpenter the drummer.
Karen was born on March 2, 1950 in New Haven, Connecticut. It was after the family moved to California in 1963 that she began a love affair with an instrument that would last her entire life.
According to friends and family, Karen took the drums very seriously from the start, spending endless hours practicing. Her brother Richard recalls, “She seemed to take to them in nothing flat.” In time, Karen came under the influence of The Dave Brubeck Quartet, with drummer Joe Morello. So keen were her ears that she soon taught herself the intricate, odd-time rhythms of Brubeck’s “Take Five” and “It’s A Raggy Waltz.” Karen had been playing little more than a year by this time.
The first incarnation of the Carpenters as a working group came in the form of The Richard Carpenter Trio. Consisting of piano, bass, and drums and performing strictly as an instrumental combo, they won first prize in the Hollywood Bowl Battle Of The Bands in 1966. The trio can be heard twice on The Carpenters: From The Top (A&M-31454), a four-disc boxed set that offers a complete overview of the group’s recording years.
The first example is a rendition of Duke Ellington’s “Caravan,” where we hear a very young Karen playing with assurance and technique. After a respectable display of swinging and comping, she launches into a solo that can best be described as an explosion of energy and chops. The next tune, “Iced Tea,” is a jazz waltz with some intricate, classical-style snare drum work, and a short solo that adds up to a real tour-de-force for a drummer just past her sixteenth birthday.
In 1969, The Carpenters recorded their first album for A&M. The album, originally released as Offering, was later reissued as Ticket To Ride (A&M-82839). On this disc, nineteen-year-old Karen plays drums on all the tracks, and also sings lead on the lion’s share of the tunes. The drum track on “Your Wonderful Parade” has Karen overdubbing snare and bass drum parts to create a huge drum-corps effect. “All I Can Do” is an uptempo jazz tune in 5/4 that swings from the word go. Here we witness a drummer in full command of her technique, assured and full of fire, playing imaginative fills and great hand/foot combinations. Her drumming is alive with the joy of self-discovery.
In 1970 all the pieces came together for The Carpenters on their recording of “Close To You.” “When the producers finally decided to go with professional musicians,” recalls studio legend Hal Blaine, “they talked to Karen about my playing drums. It was fine with her because she and Richard really wanted a hit.”
“I always said that Karen was a good drummer,” Hal insists. “I knew she could play right away when she’d sit down at my drums on sessions. She played on a lot of the album cuts, and she played when they performed live, as well. But after their third or fourth hit, I remember saying to her, “When are you going to get off the drums? You sing too good, and you should be fronting the band.” In time, it was decided that Karen would remain behind the drums on the uptempo numbers, and come down front to sing the ballads.
“Karen was a very good player and very knowledgeable about the drums,” recalls former Carpenters drummer Cubby O’Brien. “Some of the things we did together weren’t easy. Richard wanted things played exactly like the record. We worked out all the drum breaks from the records, and I played exactly what she did. The whole idea of bringing me in was to get her off the drums so she could sing more. But Richard had grown up with her playing, so it was hard for someone else to take over the drum chair.”
One of the things that Karen and Cubby did together can be heard on The Carpenters Live At The Palladuim (A&M-68403). A percussion feature was arranged where Karen would move around the stage and play various configurations of drums and percussion. The medley of Gershwin tunes kicks off with a stop-time rendition of “Strike Up The Band,” where Karen fills in the spaces like a great tap dancer, dividing this rudimental workout between the head and rim of the snare drum. Moving to full drumset, she sails into some fast swing on the hi-hat, while maintaining a samba ostinato with her feet. Jumping out from behind the kit, she moves to timbales and cowbells for a brief Latin turn, trades solos with Cubby O’Brien, and ends it all on her multi-tom set for the big finish.
In 1973, work began on a new album, Now And Then (A&M-CD3519). After using session players for their three previous recordings, this one was cut almost entirely with road musicians-with one exception. Karen returned to her roots and supplied the drum tracks for every song except one. On “This Masquerade,” Karen lays down a Latin rhythm that can only be described as elegantly hip. With a stick and a brush, she weaves an almost ethereal groove. Hi-hat accents and an uncluttered clave offer a textbook example of musical and creative drumming. Towards the end, she plays some fills that break up the time and are phrased in a very personal manner.
Karen Carpenter was a more accomplished player than most people realized. No less a figure than Buddy Rich considered her to be a superior player. “I remember one time when Karen and I went to see Buddy’s band,” says Cubby O’Brien. “I knew Buddy fairly well, so before the show I took her backstage to meet him. I said ‘Buddy, this is Karen Carpenter.’ He said, ‘Karen Carpenter, do you know that you’re one of my favorite drummers?” As tough as Buddy could be on drummers sometimes, he always respected someone who played the instrument well.”

Once, when asked how she hoped time would view The carpenters, Karen said, "We want to be remembered for our contribution to music. That's the main thing in our lives: to present what comes from within us through our music. We want to be remembered as good musicians and nice people."

And this is precisely how we'll remember Karen Carpenter, who, to the end, always considered herself a drummer who sang.

Source:
http://www.thecarpenters.nl/tijdschriften/artikel-uit-modern-drummer-volume-25-nummer-4

 

[GaryAlan]

Richard Carpenter Fans Ask:
"Karen immediately liked the sound of Ludwig drums. One person she looked up to was Jim Squeglia, a high school pal of mine in New Haven who owned a set of Ludwigs. At the time Ludwig, Rogers and Slingerland were arguably the best, with a couple of people Karen looked up to playing Ludwigs; Joe Morello who played with the Dave Brubeck Quartet, and Ringo Starr, who played with some group who’s name I can’t quite remember. She was 14 years old, telling my folks she wants to play drums. We weren’t “in the chips” and were already paying on the Baldwin. Nevertheless, they bought her an entry-level Ludwig set. She proved immediately that she could play. What she really wanted was the big set in silver sparkle (Karen’s original silver sparkle Ludwig set is on display at the Carpenter Performing Arts Center). It was the full size with two top toms and dual floor toms. She liked, of course, Zildjian cymbals. She also liked the Rogers “high hat”, and a Rogers kick-drum pedal; that’s what she always used.
The snare she really wanted, but we couldn’t afford, was the Supersensitive top-of-the-line Ludwig with adjustable snares, all chrome. We started with getting the penultimate L 400, and she had that a little while, but soon we all broke down and got her the Supersensitive. Then of course, as soon as we hit it big it was like a dream come true in a number of ways. Wurlitzer was sending me every new model of electric piano for free, and sending out to California from Illinois the fellow who actually invented the electric piano, Cliff Anderson, who would do special modifications. Ludwig was sending Karen every drum set she wanted. It was really something.”

 

[newvillefan]

Then of course, as soon as we hit it big it was like a dream come true in a number of ways. Wurlitzer was sending me every new model of electric piano for free, and sending out to California from Illinois the fellow who actually invented the electric piano, Cliff Anderson, who would do special modifications. Ludwig was sending Karen every drum set she wanted. It was really something.”

That must have been such a great feeling for them as musicians, having the top names tripping over themselves to send them their newest and best products.

(Karen’s original silver sparkle Ludwig set is on display at the Carpenter Performing Arts Center)

By the time of my second (and last) holiday to LA in 2000, the Carpenter Center was complete and open for business. One of the main reasons for wanting to go back was to see the Carpenter Exhibition in the lobby and when we got there, I was devastated to find out it was only open at certain times and wouldn't be open for visitors again until after our holiday was over. Despite explaining my plight to the lady on reception that I'd come 5,000 miles to see it, she apologetically told us that there was nothing she could do. I was so disappointed and it sort of ruined my trip. I had to make do with a Carpenters mug from the gift shop.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

I ran across this article a few months ago and thought it was a cool read about Karen's drum kit.

http://drummerfish.weebly.com/blog/referbishing-karen-carpenters-drums