Carpenters Weaker "Second Half"

[Mark-T]

Okay, so I'm listening to "Made in America" this afternoon while I write. It sure is a pretty album. And that's the problem. Soft, lightweight, but without bite.

I would think most fans would break down their recording career into two segments- albums recorded pre-"Singles 1969 - 1973" and those that came afterwards. I tend to fall into that category. As much as I love the later recordings and sometimes actually prefer them to the earlier ones, when I dissect them, the whole is weaker than the individual pieces.

It all got me to thinking. Overall "Horizon" aside, the songs themselves are much weaker than the earlier ones chosen to record. Compare "Superstar", "Rainy Days and Mondays" and "Goodbye to Love" to most of what came later.

Although Karen's vocals are lovely and Richard's arrangements are often effective, the end result is just not as strong. I think the poorer song choice adversely affected how they chose to sing, arrange, and produce. Resulting in lesser quality, fewer classics.

What do you think?

 

[song4u]

I think perhaps they (or the record company) were trying to sell to the biggest audience possible. "Don't offend anyone with harder hitting songs or let down the people that like their softer songs". It is a business after all.

Richard has said they were overworked, and we know that Richard and Karen were both not well. I'm sure that also had an effect on their creativity.

 

[BarryT60]

I might offer respectfully that the division is more obvious after 1975. For me, Horizon is a crowning achievement - in terms of production values and over-all sound and concept. Hard for me to use 'The Singles 1969-1973' as the best division of time.

I do however, see your larger point. In the album dissections here, most would agree that Hush and MIA were weaker and softer offerings.

What's ironic though, for me anyway, throughout Passage, there are moments of that old spark and absolute brilliance... All you Get From Love is a Love Song, Two Sides, I Just Fall In Love Again, Sweet Sweet Smile... Good stuff that could have easily been dropped in on a Horizon double album - or a Now and Then 3rd side...

Like everyone else, I so wish we'd have been able to see what the next chapter would have been with everyone on a healthier path and with a new vigor energizing both K & R...

 

[Jeff]

CarpenterS per sales obviously rose above critics and sass. I've often wondered did RC lose his muse? Picking Rainy Days and Hurting Each Other etc.. he could do no wrong. Catering to the lead vocal gave us HORIZON plus. But 1976 on...health, tedium, loss of inspiration...? I don't know if the listeners tired of K&R from having dominated the airwaves or they simply lost use of the formula that showcased Karen in a ballad...a hit pick. HUSH, well I love it, but where did Karen's presence of yesteryear go? PASSAGE creative genius and a fitting addition. Xmas Portrait finds Karen ala HORIZONesque. Then the loooong loooong loooong wait for MIA. Happy was I but I understand the formula of register, ballad and single pick amiss for the general audience. All the brief, interspersed KAREN CARPENTER hoopla I don't know that I bought into fully. The newsletters had a genuine way of revealing only the "cream risen to the top". Return to form during much of the MMM sessions and I believe that albums release including outtakes and such would've melded nicely along Ronstadt and her pairing with Nelson Riddle. How about a release CarpenterS MUSIC MUSIC MUSIC The Nelson Riddle Sessions? Hmmmm? Yeah! Interesting huh? Karen & Richard over time would've likely experienced the resurgent acclaimed effort. More Grammy nods and on. The peak of popularity ebbs and flows. Where Olivia, Cher and the many countless have survived to see enduring success so could our duo/solo. Well, one solo artist really. But I digress. Seems K&R's focus on being the constant chart topper didn't allow them to drink in the spoils graciously. The pressure of success and the over-the-top goals we set...should be a lesson in there somewhere.

Jeff

 

[Mark-T]

song4u, I think Richard put as much pressure on them for commercial success as the record company did.

Barry, "Passage" does seem like the great experiment with some strong songs, but is SO varied that it feels like it lacks cohesiveness. I could see some of it showing up on other albums.

Jeff, it's interesting that when you look at what was recorded for "Portrait" and MMM, you are talking classic songs that have stood the test of time. Even if they have been butchered by singers or producers from time to time, they have stood. Perhaps you are strengthening my point!

 

[davidgra]

I would actually say that the decline in song quality began earlier than The Singles: 1969-1973. For me, Now & Then was the first album that wasn't better than the one before it. "This Masquerade" and "I Can't Make Music" aside, the rest of Now & Then consisted of songs that were either lightweight, sentimental, or just gimmicky. (I'm actually a big fan of "Sing," unlike many people, but it's not exactly a song with an "edge").

For me, the darker, harder-edged songs were always my favorites. "Rainy Days," "Superstar," "Hurting Each Other," "Goodbye to Love," etc. Overly sentimental songs like "Yesterday Once More" and "Only Yesterday" just didn't do all that much for me. While Horizon had some songs that could be classified as "darker" ("Solitaire," Desperado"), they lacked the "edge" or the "bite" of the earlier material. While some of my displeasure with Horizon comes from the pacing -- too many lethargic ballads -- more of my displeasure comes from the songs themselves. The performances and technical aspects of the the recording are superb, but the songs just aren't "great." This trend unfortunately continued through to Made in America, with a few notable exceptions ("You" being one).

What caused this? I think it was a multitude of things. Tastes in top-40 music tend to change quickly, and some artists are able to adapt better than others to new styles. A lot of pop acts hit it very big in the '70s, but just couldn't sustain the chart success beyond a few years; Captain & Tennille, Bread, Barry Manilow, and John Denver all come to mind. Karen & Richard's touring schedule certainly didn't help, as they weren't able to spend the time writing, selecting, and recording music they way they should have. Declining health on the part of both of them surely had an impact.

I'm grateful for the entire recorded legacy of the Carpenters, but I'll admit to listening to their early material more often than the later material. Those first four albums are simply some of the finest popular music ever recorded.

(As a side note, I've always found it interesting that I like some of the posthumous releases better than the songs released between 1973 and 1981. "You're the One," "Where Do I Go from Here," "Kiss Me the Way You Did Last Night," "Your Baby Doesn't Love You Anymore," and "If I Had You" all see much heavier rotation on my playlists than most of the songs that were actually released during Karen's lifetime. Is it due to the nature of posthumous releases being so treasured and valued by the fans? Are the songs really better? It's hard to be objective. I do wonder how songs like "You're the One" could be passed over, when albums from near that era contained such songs as "Man Smart, Woman Smarter.")

 

[CraigGA]

Once they had their "break", things just escalated and they were always in the right place at the right time on many different levels, even the right sound for the time, that has proven to be timeless. Every career has an ebb and flo and even their schedule, pressures and possibly addictions risked the awareness of right choices and timing. Perhaps management and personal decisions played a part. Their success internationally was still strong, which brings me back to ebb and flo. Karen just did not live long enough.
I liked The Passage project. I just feel that not strong enough material (too easy listening) in A Kind of Hush crippled the launch of Passage. I am forever thankful for the Christmas Project! (I think the Music Music Music selections could have helped as the Oldies helped in the early days. No one could sing those standards with such grip and style as Karen.) Stronger songs were recorded when Made In America came along - just not chosen for its release. Even some of Karen's solo project would have been a better fit along with Ordinary Fool. More focus should have been placed on Karen's development as an artist for she was the reason for their extreme success. We have Make Believe It's Your First Time as the perfect example being much stronger of a tune with Phil Ramone's framing of the song around Karen's voice, rather than the flowing orchestration and OK Chorale on Voice of the Heart!

 

[Dave]

There just simply wasn't a way to make much of an easy move to another record company--and at this point nothing to really even sell to one...

Their youth and innocence was always on their side! Joe Osborn, if wanting to permanently put down his bass & get Magic Lamp to expand, could have helped & guide them throughout their whole career, perhaps...

Was there, in simple terms, "No Joe to Go To"?



-- Dave

 

[Mike Blakesley]

I would actually say that the decline in song quality began earlier than The Singles: 1969-1973. For me, Now & Then was the first album that wasn't better than the one before it. "This Masquerade" and "I Can't Make Music" aside, the rest of Now & Then consisted of songs that were either lightweight, sentimental, or just gimmicky. (I'm actually a big fan of "Sing," unlike many people, but it's not exactly a song with an "edge").

For me, the darker, harder-edged songs were always my favorites. "Rainy Days," "Superstar," "Hurting Each Other," "Goodbye to Love," etc. Overly sentimental songs like "Yesterday Once More" and "Only Yesterday" just didn't do all that much for me. While Horizon had some songs that could be classified as "darker" ("Solitaire," Desperado"), they lacked the "edge" or the "bite" of the earlier material. While some of my displeasure with Horizon comes from the pacing -- too many lethargic ballads -- more of my displeasure comes from the songs themselves. The performances and technical aspects of the the recording are superb, but the songs just aren't "great." This trend unfortunately continued through to Made in America, with a few notable exceptions ("You" being one).

With the exception of "Yesterday Once More" which I love, I agree with all the sentiments quoted above. In addition to the songs cited, I like other "dark" stuff such as "Another Song," "Crescent Noon," "Eve," "Road Ode" and so on. The beginning of the decline, to me, started with "Please Mr. Postman." Outside of "I Need To Be In Love," which is awesome, just about every Carpenters single after "Postman" is pretty disposable to me. (Yes, even "Only Yesterday" which I continue to not understand the huge appeal of!)

I also agree that a lot of the after-Karen-died music is better than a lot of what came directly before. Some of the songs on Lovelines, in particular, are really good. "The Uninvited Guest" for example has that early Carpenters haunting quality to it.

 

[Mark-T]

You all make some very good points. davidgra, the songs you list that were released posthumously are also some of the reasons why I listen to the later releases. Coupled with most of "Horizon", a few selections from "A Kind of Hush", "Music Music Music" and "Ordinary Fool"- these make up some up my favorites ever.

I don't listen to "Ticket" or "Now and Then" much, although I absolutely love "Our Day Will Come". Albums 2, 3, and 4 do seem to be stronger than many others.

 

[newvillefan]

For me, the darker, harder-edged songs were always my favorites. "Rainy Days," "Superstar," "Hurting Each Other," "Goodbye to Love," etc. Overly sentimental songs like "Yesterday Once More" and "Only Yesterday" just didn't do all that much for me.

I think it would have been impossible (and dare I say, monotonous) to have consistently released singles of the calibre of 'Rainy Days' and 'Superstar'. Truly great songs like that just don't come along all that often, especially when the material also has to be suited to the Carpenters' unique sound and Richard style of arranging.

(As a side note, I've always found it interesting that I like some of the posthumous releases better than the songs released between 1973 and 1981. "You're the One," "Where Do I Go from Here," "Kiss Me the Way You Did Last Night," "Your Baby Doesn't Love You Anymore," and "If I Had You" all see much heavier rotation on my playlists than most of the songs that were actually released during Karen's lifetime. Is it due to the nature of posthumous releases being so treasured and valued by the fans?

I have to agree with you there, some of their later The answer to that question, for me, is twofold: their sound became more sophisticated as recording techniques improved in the late 70s and early 80s (and beyond Karen's death). Also, songs like 'Kiss Me' and 'If I Had You' are really ambitious in their sound. Karen's vocals on the latter are the best I've ever heard her. Who says only Richard could produce her voice?

 

[Harry]

I think it would have been impossible (and dare I say, monotonous) to have consistently released singles of the calibre of 'Rainy Days' and 'Superstar'. Truly great songs like that just don't come along all that often, especially when the material also has to be suited to the Carpenters' unique sound and Richard style of arranging.

And yet, right after those two came the A SONG FOR YOU album, filled with more incredible single material, so much so that the A SONG FOR YOU album somewhat overshadowed the prior one that had that great "Superstar" and "Rainy Days And Mondays" duo. And they were on such a hot streak that a great potential single like "Let Me Be The One" had to be passed over to make way for the new album.

I'm going to agree with Mark here and say that NOW AND THEN and SINGLES were their last big hurrah in terms of absolutely blowing me away. While NOW AND THEN isn't quite "there", it was real close in terms of initial impact. I was amazed at the oldies medley and its framing song "Yesterday Once More". "Sing" hadn't yet worn itself out, and some of the other side one songs were dazzling - initially.

SINGLES was in a league of its own - while being a bunch of hits, it hung together as an album in a way that was unexpected and surprising.

My first Carpenters letdown was HORIZON. I know others here place it at the absolute peak of their career, but I and a few others have always seen it differently. Its draggy ballads just made it seem so slow. There was no "fire" there, just some smoldering embers. To be sure, they were smoldering in a good way- the album is recorded extremely well and has always sounded great (in its official releases). But the material sagged and dragged. I've noted before that I love "Only Yesterday" - and I believe that that song and "Please Mr. Postman" are remnants from the prior era - final flashes of brilliance that were offshoots of the NOW AND THEN era. And those two were the highlights of HORIZON.

HUSH, PASSAGE, MADE IN AMERICA all had some moments that were good, but the "greatness" was gone. The career ebb, as happens to all artists, had set in, and I think Richard's problems may have accelerated the process a bit. Had he been firing on all cylinders, I think things would have gone a little differently. Karen could sing anything well, so I think it was Richard's lack of spark that was holding them back at that point.

All 20/20 hindsight from a fan. It's all very easy to do when just looking at what someone else *should* have done. Not so easy when it's you. I've never created a number one hit single and am not likely to. I've only written one song - and it came out sounding like "Quentin's Theme" sideways.

So yeah - the second half was surely weaker.

Harry

 

[newvillefan]

There was no "fire" there, just some smoldering embers. To be sure, they were smoldering in a good way- the album is recorded extremely well and has always sounded great (in its official releases). But the material sagged and dragged.

I think that's a brilliant description Harry, which sums up tracks like 'Aurora' and 'Eventide' perfectly.

 

[GaryAlan]

Two particulars come to mind when I ruminate upon the causes of the Carpenters' "weaker second-half".
First, I had always believed that, regardless of those who insist otherwise, Karen's health issues must
have had an impact on her strength, her vocal stamina-if you will. To the extent that she was suffering physically,
I can not imagine that her stamina in the recording studio was not affected.
Her health vacillated enormously throughout the decade, and even within separate years (e.g.,Early 1975-good health, later 1975-less so)
And, then again, as the 1970's wore on, Richard's apparent health issues also played a role in his production and arranging talents.
Combined with the relentless touring from 1970 to 1975, it seems to me that nothing but a slow-down could be expected.
Secondly, I find "Horizon" to be an awfully difficult album to follow-up with.
The physical appearance of the album (classy, sophisticated, but dark), the fine photos (inside and out), the quality of the production,
the masterful arrangements, heavier lyrical content, and finally,
the utter ethereal quality of Karen's Voice on this album, are all as perfect as any 'pop' album could be. (IMHO)
(No instrumental fillers, no lead vocals by Richard, it's all just Karen's superb lead vocals).
It is ballad-heavy, even a bit draggy, as has been pointed out.
But, even if draggy, still a fantastic piece of pop music; and, when compared with other musical acts of the day, or any day,
Carpenters and "Horizon" stand worlds apart.
Listen closely to that voice and those musical instruments on this album: unsurpassed.

So, my two cents, in a nutshell:
Health issues conspired to wreak havoc on the duos career,
and,
A follow-up to the standards set by "Horizon" were going to
present a unique blend of musical conundrums for the duo.
The album breaks the mold of all previous efforts.

 

[Mark-T]

"Secondly, I find "Horizon" to be an awfully difficult album to follow-up with.
The physical appearance of the album (classy, sophisticated, but dark), the fine photos (inside and out), the quality of the production,
the masterful arrangements, heavier lyrical content, and finally,
the utter ethereal quality of Karen's Voice on this album, are all as perfect as any 'pop' album could be. (IMHO)
(No instrumental fillers, no lead vocals by Richard, it's all just Karen's superb lead vocals).
It is ballad-heavy, even a bit draggy, as has been pointed out.
But, even if draggy, still a fantastic piece of pop music; and, when compared with other musical acts of the day, or any day,
Carpenters and "Horizon" stand worlds apart.
Listen closely to that voice and those musical instruments on this album: unsurpassed."

So well said GaryAlan! The sheer beauty of this album is unparalleled by them.

 

[song4u]

Something I wonder about is that the Passage album was quite diverse - like they were saying "We can do all different kinds of music - let us know what you want!" And then it seemed they went back to the original formula. Was I the only one who wanted to see them push the envelope a little further the next time?

 

[Mark-T]

I loved how "crisp" Passage was. Maybe that's why as much as I liked Made in America, I always thought it was too soft.

 

[Actorman]

I agree with mstaft as far as Singles: 1969-1973 being the "dividing line" between the first and second phases of the Carpenters career. I have always felt that way. Everything that followed (Horizon included) just doesn't have the same magic to me as those first 5 albums. That doesn't mean, of course, that the later stuff isn't good and I don't love it. It is and I do. It's just different. If we put aside the hit singles for a moment and focus on the album cuts, there is just nothing on the later albums that reaches the same level of "Carpenterness" of tracks like "Road Ode," "Crystal Lullaby," "This Masquerade," "Another Song," "Crescent Noon," "Let Me Be The One," "One Love," "(A Place To) Hideaway, "Maybe It's You," "Eve," "Someday," etc. In my mind, THAT is the distinctive "Carpenters sound." The post-1973 recordings all seem to dilute that trademark sound even though many of those tracks are still wonderful in their own right.

I've always believed the reason for this was the pressure that their success brought them. Think about it. By the release of Singles: 1969-1973, they had released 10 hit singles (2 #1s, 5 #2s, 2 #3s) and 4 hit albums (3 #2s, 1 #4) in four years. That is an amazing track record for any artist. I imagine the expectations from A&M to keep the hits coming had to be incredible which could hamper anyone's creativity not even taking into account health issues, exhaustion from touring, etc. Plus, the pressure to not "disappoint" the fans. I think this caused Richard to start "over-analyzing" everything instead of just trusting his instincts.

I don't remember the exact quote, but in the late '70/early '80s Richard said something to the effect of "trying to figure out what they [fans] want" or "wish they would tell us what they want from us." That is a very telling statement. Much of the brilliance of those early albums came from the fact that they were all Richard's vision. Richard didn't need to be "told" what to do. He just made music that he loved and that sounded good to him and it all just worked. Fans didn't know they wanted "Close to You" or "Superstar" or any of the others until Richard followed his gut and put them out there for them. When he started worrying too much about pleasing everyone (Herb and Jerry, the fans, the critics, etc.) some of the magic was lost. The "pre-Horizon" stuff didn't sound like anything else or anybody else which is why people fell in love with it. Horizon and beyond, they started to sound more like what their contemporaries were doing. While I wouldn't go as far as to say their sound became more generic, they were definitely easing in that direction.

I often wonder how different those later albums might have been if the early string of hits had been "top 30s" instead of "top 5s." Richard may have had/felt more artistic freedom without the pressure of "staying on top" that was likely put upon them (and that they probably put upon themselves, too).

 

[song4u]

I don't remember the exact quote, but in the late '70/early '80s Richard said something to the effect of "trying to figure out what they [fans] want" or "wish they would tell us what they want from us." That is a very telling statement. Much of the brilliance of those early albums came from the fact that they were all Richard's vision. Richard didn't need to be "told" what to do. He just made music that he loved and that sounded good to him and it all just worked. Fans didn't know they wanted "Close to You" or "Superstar" or any of the others until Richard followed his gut and put them out there for them. When he started worrying too much about pleasing everyone (Herb and Jerry, the fans, the critics, etc.) some of the magic was lost. The "pre-Horizon" stuff didn't sound like anything else or anybody else which is why people fell in love with it. Horizon and beyond, they started to sound more like what their contemporaries were doing. While I wouldn't go as far as to say their sound became more generic, they were definitely easing in that direction.

I often wonder how different those later albums might have been if the early string of hits had been "top 30s" instead of "top 5s." Richard may have had/felt more artistic freedom without the pressure of "staying on top" that was likely put upon them (and that they probably put upon themselves, too).

I also remember that being said in an interview, but I thought it was Karen. Either way, I'm thinking that's probably the impetus behind Passage. And I do agree with you that the pressure Richard felt he was under was underlying it to a degree. It was probably also the reason for his insomnia that let to addiction. I can only imagine the kind of pressure that comes from the amazing fame and fortune they had amassed by that time.

That being said, I think that may be in part why, when Karen had the opportunity to solo, she went in other directions herself. "What do people want to hear from me?", as well as "What do I want to do on my own?". It's a shame she didn't get the feedback she would have if the album had been released.

 

[GaryAlan]

Carpenters' Reader, by Randy Schmidt, has the aforementioned interview from the late 1970's,
whereby they (Karen and Richard) ask "if someone would just tell us what the problem is" in regards to
the decline in airplay of Carpenters' songs. (They are truly puzzled).
There are a great many fascinating viewpoints here, and it is informative reading these alternative viewpoints.
I might add that many of the later songs (1975 onward) are some of the duos very best.
Any issues I have only refer to the "Albums" as an "entire" entity.(Each album has its share of brilliant songs.).
I can certainly point to some great material throughout their entire career, but the over-all cohesiveness of the "Horizon" album
as a musical and artistic whole, is why I make it my delineating point in their career.
(Were I to choose one album which straddles the break in popularity, if not musical output.)
Certainly, albums previous to Horizon, are superb. (Although, certain things "get on my nerves").
Certainly, their are sparks of genius after Horizon.(There again, some musical things "get under my skin.")
I notice a change in the type of musical instruments in the later half, also. More flutes, heavier use of strings.
Then there is a change in the manner of overdubbed vocals, plus the utilization of other singers and chorales.
Certain things about Horizon "bug me", also (it's too short, for instance), but as an entire product, I feel it is masterful.
Too bad there was not an album in 1974. It might have been perfect in every respect.

 

[newvillefan]

Too bad there was not an album in 1974. It might have been perfect in every respect.

Couldn't agree more! Had they not toured so much I think we'd have gotten one.

 

[Jeff]

Conjuring my first HORIZON take I remember being depressed at the end. I was all what? Suddenly suicidal? I expected much more Postmen and Only Yesterday's and repeated listens left me gloomy. The impeccable production was lost on me in '75. Opening that unique jacket AND the smell therein...ya the smell...I thought it was going to be a party at the over-dubs. Right off I noticed Karen's full-fledged maturity and command of voice. It wasn't until later that I really got down and dirty with my appreciation of the release. Taken individually each note is a triumph! A vocal wonderland until then never explored. Now, hindsight has elevated the performances as consistently brilliant. There are takes on MIA years later that work for me but aside from Xmas Portrait and KC's solo outing of Make Believe It's Your First Time (which incidentally would necessitate a lot of 'make believe' cuz I don't remember) the strokes of honey-laced warmth were kinda here-n-there. All enjoyable mind you 'cept that Not So OK Chorale biz save PORTRAIT. On the XMAS music I forgive...now. Then I was disappointed again. I thought how lazy employing these persons of aural turpitude. Today HORIZON makes me happy and I can listen thru to '76 and Goofus unscathed. It's not until 77's Man Smart thang that I curdled. Not so honorable mention to Suzanne Somer's less than darling duet with K on SPACE ENCOUNTER'S. OOOOH that show hurt me. We aint gonna sell em that way thought I. At least not beyond me....Oh bother....

Jeff

 

[Someday]

To my mind, Horizon has always been a Masterpiece. It is a beautiful work of art, expertly produced and Karen's vocals are stunning (although I sometimes think 'Postman' doesn't fit). I think you have to consider the TV shows in this; the clowning around just grates against the darker material ... should Cs have had a stylist/spin doctor? ... Passage is too a great collection, save for MSWS, which I find just weird. After the lukewarm reception of MIA, one wonders what they were aiming for with the mood of the 'new' album? Overall, 14 years is not a long recording career, which makes it difficult to judge what might have been. I have been listening to Dame Shirley Bassey, who is set to release a new work later this year, and made her first album in 1957; that 57 years worth of recordings as opposed to 14 years with the Cs. Kinda puts things into perspective.

 

[Mark-T]

Good thoughts Someday. BTW- do you really have Karen tattooed on your chest?

 

[Someday]

Ha, no mstaft! The guy in the painting is supposed to be RC. From a piece of art I did for a 'tribute' recording.